The Outdoor Gibbon
Join me on my journey through stories and interviews talking to like-minded individuals. It doesn’t matter who you are this podcast will hopefully educate and guide you through the world deerstalking, shooting and the outdoor world.
The information in these podcasts is for you to enjoy and develop you own opinions, if you take everyday as a school day you will see the bigger picture.
Thanks for listening and sharing in the journey
The Outdoor Gibbon
25 From Professional Hunter to Passionate Sportsman: Jason Doyle's Journey
Meeting Jason Doyle feels like sitting down with an old friend who happens to know every secret about hunting Ireland's elusive sika deer. As a former professional hunter from the Emerald Isle, Jason brings a refreshing honesty to this conversation that cuts through the often-idealized portrayal of hunting in social media.
From his unexpected journey into deer stalking (which he initially dismissed as "crawling around a mountain for a day to shoot something the size of a horse with a rifle") to becoming one of Ireland's most respected hunters, Jason shares wisdom earned through decades of experience. His description of Wicklow as "a condensed version of Scotland" perfectly captures why Ireland offers such exceptional stalking opportunities—smaller mountains but more varied habitat that delivers in two days what might take a week in Scotland.
The conversation delves into practical matters that will fascinate hunters of all experience levels. Jason's techniques for handling Ireland's challenging winds (waiting for deer to be positioned with their backs to the wind before shooting), his thoughts on caliber selection (.270 remains his go-to), and his candid assessment of the shift toward non-toxic ammunition all provide valuable insights for anyone looking to improve their own hunting practice. His admission that "the more you shoot, the more you miss" serves as a refreshing counterpoint to the perfectionism often portrayed in hunting media.
What truly distinguishes this episode is Jason's passionate description of sika hunting during the rut—the magical experience of hearing stags whistling across misty valleys at dawn. As he puts it: "I just don't think there's anything to match it." After listening to his stories, you'll understand why Ireland deserves a place on every serious hunter's bucket list.
Whether you're planning your next hunting adventure, curious about conservation issues facing Irish deer populations, or simply enjoy authentic conversations about the hunting life, this episode delivers insights you won't find anywhere else. Subscribe now and join our growing community of thoughtful outdoor enthusiasts.
Hello and welcome to the Outdoor Gibbon podcast, episode 25, with Jason Doyle, former professional deer stalker from Ireland. Anyway, before we get into the body of this podcast, let's just have a bit of a catch-up. It's early January. Finally, the snow has just lifted with us. It's been about four days of crazy weather up here. I think we're just about to get hit by a another storm. I think most of the country's about to get that storm.
Speaker 3:So batten and dan hatches thought we'd get this podcast recorded and released so that you've got something to listen to should the power go out. So let's have a think where we are in the season. While the pheasant season is drawing to a close, I think there's one more weekend really of shooting available on that we've got the hind season will be will be closing mid-february. Uh, rodo will are still in, but the roebucks are all showing promise. They've all got good heads with that, with velvet on them at the minute. So, uh, hopefully the roebucks season will. Well, it'll be honest, before we know it really, uh, if that's the end of the pheasant season, that'll be the start of the pheasant egg season. So the hatcheries will all be yet be gearing up ready for, uh, for the next year it seems to fly around even faster and faster.
Speaker 3:Anyway, let's talk about the, the main podcast, jason doyle. It's been a bit of a time trying to get a hold of him. He's a busy man, but we finally managed to uh, to catch a moment just after after christmas, or actually new year, managed to pin him down while he was at home back in ireland and we managed to get given podcast.
Speaker 1:Today we are joined by jason doyle, a professional hunter from ireland.
Speaker 3:How you doing, doing, jason.
Speaker 2:I'm doing very well. Thank you very much for having me on and I think, uh, to call me a professional hunter now is a bit generous. I haven't been a professional hunter for a few years, but I still do quite a bit.
Speaker 3:I was going to say your, your, your social media side of things. Still, you're still out and about doing, doing lots of stuff, and I think the last time I saw you on a um, like a field sports show and all the rest of it, you were. You were out being interviewed by was it? Peter jones? You went row stalking with him yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Um, I did a film with peter on on the road back in july or august and fantastic. I've stayed in touch with peter over the years and he was always keen to do something with me, so it was good to good to catch up with him and spend a couple of days with him.
Speaker 3:So let's let's wind it back to, obviously, your beginnings. How did you uh, islands have always been an interesting topic for for shooters and things like that. How did you get involved in it?
Speaker 2:because obviously, deer stalking over there was, was, it was a was an interesting, interesting thing yeah, I'm from a shotgun shooting background and my mom's actually english and some of her family shoot and they introduced me to game shooting over there when I was a kid and my dad wasn't into shooting at all but he was into fox hunting, okay, and he he was a professional horse dealer and show jumper, so sort of through some of his mates who had shared interests and I got into the shotgun side of things here in ireland.
Speaker 2:And then I have a really good mate who was big into deer stopping and he was always trying to convince me to go with him and I just sort of felt I don't want to crawl around the mountain for a day to shoot something the size of a horse with a rifle. Just it didn't appeal to me. And then I went with him once when I was probably 22, 23 and yeah, he has some really good mountain ground and I was just sort of blown away by it and ever since then I've just been obsessed it's the wrong word, but I've just been very, very keen on um open hill stalking just really really sort of got the bug for it at that age I think there's something about actually stalking an island.
Speaker 3:I think we've spoken before most of my well. My stalking started coming over to to county, county Wicklow, and chasing seeker deer around the hill and uh yeah, that's it. If you can stalk a seeker, you can pretty much stalk anything yeah, we're.
Speaker 2:We're very lucky here to have seeker on open hill, um, and I'm very lucky to have access to some good ground through friends of mine and because it's on a scale of like compared to scotland. What we have in wicklow is tiny. I mean, there's probably estates in scotland with more hill ground than we have seagull in wicklow, so it's it's a a small group of people who have access to it, which is unfortunate in a way, but I'm lucky to have friends with some really good ground and I have access to it I, because deer stalking has always been one of those.
Speaker 3:Your season's very short over there and I think there's plans to change it, but it is an incredibly short deer season, isn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, I'd start in september and run through to end of december and heinz start first of november and run through to 28th of february I think that's one that yeah gets people is that you actually have that, that crossover point where you've actually got stags and heinz in at the same time yeah, yeah, um, but I mean for the last sort of five or six years, um, out of season licenses have been so readily available, it's, it's.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a lot of people shoot all year round now. When I started 20 years ago, um, it was very difficult to get an out of season license, yes, and for for culling, but the the numbers have spread that much now that it's very easy to get an overseas license I was going to say because everything you over there, for anybody that doesn't know obviously you have to apply for a hunting license, like a permit, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, we have to every year you have to apply for a hunting license which covers you for for that year, for the season. It covers you through to the start of the next season and then, if you want to shoot deer out of season, you have to apply for what's called a section 42 to the National Parks and Wildlife and it's specific to a location or a farm or an area, and originally the wildlife rangers would come out and assess the deer damage before they'd issue it. Okay, um, but with the increase in um deer damage or reported deer damage, it's now much easier to get one of those licenses I was going to say my, my friend.
Speaker 3:Still well, he's the forestry owner and his numbers just never seem to be increasing, how many deer he takes off this bit of land. And I just find it strange, with everybody shooting and obviously the number of professional guides that have sprung up, it's amazing that the numbers are still going up yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 2:It's funny, I sort of. I remember having conversations with guys I work with 10 years ago when the we saw a massive increase in the number of guys coming into stocking recreationally and big increases on prices of forestry leases and stuff like this. I remember thinking, god, we'd seen the best of the stocking because there's so many people coming into it. Yeah, pressure is just going to become too much, but the seeker are such a resilient animal and I mean they're just ridden out the storm and I think there's a lot of things that are contributed to that. And planting forestry by farmers has been a huge one because they've just created so much more habitat. The, the seeker's ability to adapt is unlike any other deer we have in ireland or or the uk and they just adapt so well I think they just seem to.
Speaker 3:It just seems to be such a great environment over there for them and then. But I think there's problems. You've got the hybridization going out with the, the reds up in the, the military area. They're up in the wickley range, isn't it?
Speaker 2:well, I I don't believe there's any pure red dairy in wickley anymore. We just have sika and we have hybrids, right, um, and there's a lot of hybrids in certain areas. There's there's still a hell of a lot of areas where they they haven't hybridized and but on a lot of the hill ground and you've got a big number of hybrids, which I mean as a as a looking at it from a hunting point of view, it doesn't really make much difference to me and the deer is deer, and then the hybrids are something a little bit different. They prefer slightly higher ground, so they give it a bit of a different experience. But I suppose from the purist point of view and looking at it long term, it's going to eventually completely damage the seeker herd.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was going to say because that that'll be. The next thing is it's going to start having the negative effect actually on the on the pure seeker herd at that point, if this hybridization carries on yeah, absolutely it will.
Speaker 2:Um, but as somebody that just enjoys going out to hunt, you just want to have some deer on the ground.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely yeah because the original obviously we're talking about hunting guides, professional hunters. I think the the first real professional hunter over there was was john john fenton and I think you used to work for him yeah, well, I don't like I wouldn't.
Speaker 2:I'm not an employee of his um. We're very good friends and have been for probably 10 or 15 years now.
Speaker 3:What I do with john is I help him out, and when I'm home and I can stock his areas, then um, whenever I want because I think he's got some of possibly the some of the most the best areas, I would say, for seeker out there, hasn't he really?
Speaker 2:well, that would be my opinion. But you read a lot of websites of these other outfitters that pop up and they've all got 30,000 acres of hill ground in Wicklow. If you added it all up, there's a lot of hill ground in Wicklow.
Speaker 3:I was going to say there's a lot of hill ground that seems to be shared in Wicklow, as far as I remember.
Speaker 2:That's a bit of an issue as well's.
Speaker 3:That's one for over a pint, not on a podcast I was gonna say but yeah, I think that that seemed to have always been the case. It's, uh, it was very easy we found as an english group coming over there, um, because of my work, I I managed to negotiate as 3 000 acres, pretty much over a couple of pints and a couple of cups of tea, but, um, yeah, I think, I think that's that's the biggest problem.
Speaker 2:It was just land, borders and who's got what just seemed to be always changing yeah, you see, like we have very few hunting traditions in ireland but one of our main hunting traditions is all change and I don't know if it's. I think we can probably blame the british for for that, because we were forced into it or something. I don't get into the politics of it, but it's a very socially accepted pastime is to be a deer poacher in Ireland. And like, when I say a poacher I don't mean somebody who's driving the roads with a lamp, but somebody who.
Speaker 2:The issue I see is um, you have lots of small hill farms that run up to open hill and if you go and knock on that small hill farmer's door and say can I shoot the deer, he's going to say yes, because one deer does, um, a measurable amount of damage to his 50, 60 acres.
Speaker 2:So there might be six or ten guys have permission on his land. You very rarely see a deer on it, but you see these nice groups of deer half a mile out on the hill and then sooner or later some of these guys end up out there and and it's when you speak to the farmers they're sort of saying, oh well, sure, look, it's only a few deer, but there's outfitters or groups of people, syndicates paying really big money for that land and try and manage it as well as they can and have their own sport, and it's sort of not really seen as theft what these guys are doing when they just go up there to shoot one or two deer. But I mean, if you've got five or six guys doing it once a week, it's more than one or two deer yeah, it soon adds up, because that was, that was the other that I was going to touch on.
Speaker 3:For a while there was a huge problem, uh, I think, with basically guys going out shooting deer and just getting to the game dealer just to make money, um, and then obviously the legislation all changed about secure, about what you had to to produce, basically to sell your deer. I know that's when we first started there it was. It was a big problem up near like places like the sally gap and stuff like that yeah, deer stocking is one of the few country sports that you can.
Speaker 2:You can make money from um. I mean, nobody gets into driven pheasant shooting because they want to make a few quid. It's a very expensive pastime, um. But there's people who can really make a decent profit out of out of deer if they, if they get the numbers um and it, it then attracts the wouldn't say the wrong sort of people, but it probably attracts people who possibly struggle to afford to justify the amount of stalking they do. So they end up in a situation where they feel they they have to shoot a certain amount of deer to get a certain amount of money back so they can justify the, the pickup truck and the blazer rifle and all the rest um, which is absolutely fine. I have. I have zero issue with people selling their deer or making money from venison, like I have zero issue with it. But when that becomes an obsession to a point where they're prepared to break the law and then there's an issue yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:I think all the new legislation that came into place certainly did curb that massively, which was quite nice to see it did for a certain amount of time, but over then, over a period of five or six years, everybody got the qualifications they needed to get, or got to know somebody who had the qualifications that they needed to to get their deer fligging, do I mean? What seems to have curbed it a bit now is the price of venison has gone down, um, but on the other hand then you have complaints from landowners and deer management groups uh, that the the numbers are increasing so rapidly and that they're on about doing sort of contract calls and stuff now well, I heard, yeah, because there was also talk about changing your season as well, extending it, making it longer, and that that that obviously will have a difference to how things happen.
Speaker 3:What's your feelings on that?
Speaker 2:I mean to be quite honest. I don't know enough about the details of these proposals to really give an educated comment For me. I try and stay out of the politics. I'm not interested in the politics of it. There's enough people who are more interested in all the ticks of hunting than actually hunting.
Speaker 3:I just want to get out and hunt oh fantastic, well, we'll, we'll leave, we'll leave the politics behind then and we will. Uh, we've got the history of the deer there. So your shooting is wide and varied because obviously, yeah, you do a lot of um, still shotgun sports and stuff like that, but, uh, you obviously enjoy taking the rifle out. Is there anywhere in particular in the world that you've enjoyed hunting?
Speaker 2:um, it's. It's funny. I was actually having this conversation with an english friend of mine goes over a couple of weeks ago. It was his first trip here and I spent probably 10 or 15 years traveling everywhere I could trying to find.
Speaker 2:Like before I had access to hill ground in in ireland, I used to travel to scotland, over to alban and right for for a week or two on hinds every year because, as I said earlier, it's very difficult to get access to hill ground here and I loved it and it. It really sort of taught me how to hunt open hill. But then I've been to austria, to the chamois there. New zealand is probably the one of the more exceptional places I've been. But having been away from ireland and the hunting here for three years when we lived in england, I've come home this year and and did a month on stags and I've just done a month on hinds and you're just going. This is probably probably the best, if not one of the best, hunting experiences in the world. Why would? Why do I keep trying to find something better?
Speaker 3:yeah, I was gonna say it's um, it's one of those things I've missed it. I haven't been back over to isle of about four years and and the memories, just the days. It's like being in Scotland, but everything's just wetter. Well, it's.
Speaker 2:I always describe Wicklow as a condensed version of Scotland, because you've got smaller mountains but you've got a more varied habitat over a shorter range, so you can get the same experience you'd have in a week in Scotland you can do in two days in Wicklow. Yep, yeah, no, I agree, if you're in good areas you can shoot. I mean, especially when you get into january and february when hinds are moving strong like it's, it's not unusual to shoot sort of three or four in a day, and they're manageable enough that you can extract them quite quickly from the hill on your own or with one other guy. You're not relying on teams of teams of people to get the animals in off the hill yeah, no, I, I've done that myself.
Speaker 3:I remember trying to squeeze a hind into a row sack and, uh, walking it back for about four miles and I'll never do it again, but I did it, so yeah wouldn't be.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't even be able to contemplate it with a red deer.
Speaker 3:No no, not at at all. You might get away with a calf, but yeah, even that's still about the same size as a seeker hind at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:No, we're very lucky here and we're very lucky that there's no restrictions on the numbers you can shoot or issuing tags or anything like that. You speak to American hunters and they can't believe that we can shoot dozens of deer a year and no issue.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that that's. I think that's the big thing. I think the uk and an island. We're quite spoiled, really, with the ability just to go out and be able to shoot, whereas the americans have got their, like their tag lottery and if you want to go out and get your trophy back and all if you don't draw it, you just hope it's going to be there next year, kind of thing. Yeah, exactly so, um, you obviously said you do a lot with the shotgun. Is that? Uh, is that just sort of out on the clays? Is that out with um driven pheasant shoots or anything in particular?
Speaker 2:um, I, I love driven pheasant shooting, absolutely love it, and love pigeon shooting. Uh, any sort of craft protection here, I love it. Clays I enjoy them, but I do it more as just something to do in the summer. I'd love to have the time and interest to dedicate to clay's properly and try and get as good as I think I could be. You know what I mean, which would probably never happen. But I enjoy clay's. I enjoy it for a crack because it's a good way to meet up with people after the summer and have a bit of crack but you get some absolutely fantastic pigeon days over there as well on the crops we've had some good pigeon shooting here and, yeah, pheasant shooting, been big into that for a number of years so is that?
Speaker 3:was that mainly in Ireland, or is that when you've been living in England? The pheasant shooter?
Speaker 2:Most of my pheasant shooting is done in England, just through family and friends there Do a little bit here, but yeah, a lot of it's in England just with, as I say, with groups of family and friends. For me, the whole thing of pheasant shooting is the people you're doing it with.
Speaker 3:It's not normally about the bag, it's about the day, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It? Yeah, it's not. It's not normally about the bag, it's about the day, isn't it? It's about the day, except there are some places when it's about the experience of that actual shoot yeah. But my favourite shoots about to our little family shoots down in Hampshire where I've been going since I'm 10, 12 years of fishing with my uncle and you know all the guns, most of Most of the beaters know you, and it's the quality of the birds is absolutely relevant. It's a great day out, bit of crack.
Speaker 3:It's having a laugh poaching somebody else's bird down the line or something like that. That's. That's what it's all about, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, I absolutely love it. I mean that's they're the best days for me. There's a couple of little shoots down there that my family shoot on.
Speaker 3:And yeah, it's just just. I absolutely love going there. Fantastic, because there was, I was having to look back. You've also been involved in some sort of uh, long range rifle shooting and stuff like that over the years yeah, I did that and it was when I was doing field sports ireland.
Speaker 2:There was a good friend of mine who did a lot of filming with me. He's into gallery rifle shooting, all this. He's had some world titles in gallery and pistol and he wanted to try this PRS. It wasn't really something that interested me. I've done a lot of long range stuff with the rifle but really practicing for hunting. But when he suggested this we spoke to some brands about it. They were keen for us to do it, so I did enjoy it. It was good and I actually to some brands about what. They were keen for us to do it, so I did enjoy it. It was.
Speaker 3:It was good and I actually met some really really good guys at the competitions, which surprised me because I thought everyone I met was going to be, um, not the most, as I heard I was going to say yeah, yeah, possibly not the type of people that you're used to having out on the hill taking stalky and stuff like that, with a, with a passion for what they're doing. They're more going to be a bit sort of telling you all about ballistics and stuff and like, yeah, is this going to do my head in, kind of thing yeah, but no, I met some, met some really good guys actually, especially some of the americans and who we shot with on the.
Speaker 2:it was the guardian long range competition we did and it was actually a really great couple of days. Really enjoyed it. It's not something I'd really dedicate a lot of time to anymore. I just don't have time to do everything and that's an expensive pastime that doesn't really serve any purpose to me. It doesn't put meat on the table.
Speaker 3:I was going to say it's not like you need to shoot Seker a thousand thousand meters, is it? No false or the better also the better so that actually you kind of touched on it. There you were, you were quite involved with field sports island. Um, how did that come about?
Speaker 2:well what happened. It goes right back to um. I did an article. My the sporting sporting rifle used to do an auction every year for Save the Rhino and my mum bought me a raw stock in Yorkshire with John Robson for, I think, my 28th birthday or something and I went over and I hadn't a clue who Pete Carr was or anything like that. But I did this raw book stock with John Robson and Pete had asked him that if I got one to ask me would I do an article on for sport and rifle, which I did. And I just got sort of back and forward with pete cardin and he came here to shoot sega and then you sort of saw the opportunities here for filming. So he talked me into getting my own camera, getting one of my mates out with me and doing some films for the shooting show, which I did for a couple of years. And then, um, what happened? Yeah, there was.
Speaker 2:There was a bit of back and forth when um, the company that owned that, was sold and I actually I was looking for a new opportunity to do something different. So I tried to buy what was what is the shooting show from? I think it was Blaze or Future or someone at the time and they wouldn't sell it. But basically I wanted to do more of that kind of thing and turn it more into a more regular thing and to improve the quality of the productions I was making. And so they wouldn't sell it. And it was actually.
Speaker 2:My wife said to me it was just a couple of weeks before the shooting show. She says go and speak to David Wright, charlie at the Field Sports Channel, who I knew well and through Al Chillerley, who's a great mate, and I thought, well, what have I got to lose? So I went to his spot for them and said I've got some ability with a camera, I've got some ability in front of the camera. Is there any chance I can do some shows for you? So they had a chat, came back the next day and they were like yeah, we'll, we'll do you a like a franchise deal where you'll have field sports ireland, we'll look after all the production, you do the filming, supply the content, we'll help you get brands on board and we'll charge you x amount for editing and production. We'll charge you x amount for using our channel, which I needed for their views, because to start the channel from scratch would have taken 10 years absolutely yeah so, yeah, it was brilliant.
Speaker 2:I did it for two years and I'm would have continued doing it, other than the sort of home situation changed with moving to england because my wife's from england, so we we had three years living there and working there, and but yeah, I really, really enjoyed it. And it's one of those things it's like probably once a week still get messages on instagram and facebook and stuff about certain videos and when you're going to do them again and and people have enjoyed them still and I think that's the thing people seem to just dig stuff up and uh and and go back to it and but especially good quality, good content shows that actually cover stuff, I think, is what people really want.
Speaker 3:Um, and that's the difficulty. Nowadays, I think, the social media has become how, in the nicest way, it's becoming quite fake, unfortunately. And actually proper content is it? You have to, you have to feed through a lot of things to actually find genuine people doing genuine stuff yeah, I 100% agree with you, and I mean all through the films I did.
Speaker 2:I am not an expert in anything in any way, shape or form. I'm a student of everything I do. Still, and all the films I made I had one eye on. I wasn't trying to create content for people who were into hunting and stalking for 50 years and knew everything, because they're the guys that would pick holes and stuff. Let's all know. If they were entertained by it, fine, but my content was for somebody who's just watching, who's just got into deer stalking or just got into pheasant shooting or pigeon shooting.
Speaker 2:I was always just trying to teach somebody something that I've learned the hard way. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. If you already knew it, then it means nothing to you, fine, scroll on. But I mean, literally over the years, thousands and thousands of messages from people who were like, oh, I never thought of doing this or never thought of doing that, or, um, I've just butchered my first year having watched your video or something like little things like that. And I was by no means the only one doing it, but it was, I I think, decent content and yeah, uh yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I think that's the thing, though and and I get messages because of this podcast has done like guys starting out listening to to the podcast and saying how useful it's been, etc. Etc. So it's always about I think the biggest thing I've ever learned is every day is still a school day. It doesn't matter how experienced you are.
Speaker 2:You could still learn something new from somebody I've brought people out stalking who've never shot a deer before, and I've learned something from them. You see a certain way to tie their boots or a certain way that they load their rifle or something they do, and you kind of go oh, I've never thought of that, but it makes so much sense and you'd be. Just you'd be what. What really annoys me about the hunting community is the arrogance of some people who are not willing to learn because they think that they've done it all so many times that they can't be wrong that that, that's that, that's the, that is the biggest thing, that's, that's one of the, the big things that we we see, even on the hill you get.
Speaker 3:You get the guys that come out that tell you how to do your job and it's like, well, I'm sorry, but I think I know where the deer are, kind of thing yeah, and when it comes to shop placement, and they've never made a mistake, that's, that's the one that I was, oh yeah yeah, well, I, I obviously I've been stalking basically in a in a glacial valley for most of this season and it is it's virtually straight up, straight down and you get guys out and they know their shot placement if it was horizontal.
Speaker 3:But when you try and tell them well, we're up on a cliff and you're shooting 45 degrees down, I want you to shoot at the top of the spine. No, no, no, I'll do too much damage. It's like no, you'll actually drop the deer.
Speaker 2:If you shoot where you think you're gonna shoot, it's gonna walk away yeah, and then you, you get people and you're a on a slight gradient, like a 25 degree gradient, and they miss the deer at 150 yards and they say, oh well, it was downhill, so that love effect was my drop, and you just go no, it really won't. Yeah, you need to be 45 degrees and more than 200 yards for that to make any difference we've had some interesting situations this year.
Speaker 3:Obviously with with the winds and all the rest of it with us, we've had some serious bullet drift. I've only ever experienced bullet drift massively once when I was doing my h cap over there at at the range in the midlands and I saw a 308 drift by six inches.
Speaker 2:But we we've been suffering like 18 inches of bullet drift on the hill this year it's the, it's the one thing you I mean wind and fog are two things that you just can do nothing about. Everything else you can work with but yeah, we and it's it's the difficult one when you're guiding is to to help people with a wind call.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we, yeah, like. Obviously, the best case scenario is to get close enough that it doesn't matter, but especially this time of year when deer deer are spooky, you can't help it. Actually, I was guiding an english fella last week and we ran a herd of hybrids and it was, I think, 220 yards. We could not get any closer, and something that I learned through through making mistakes was to wait till you had an animal that was axed into the wind, and then what I always tell them to do is hold on the back of your kill zone. So then because sometimes you'll see it up there, you can have a 30 mile an hour wind. Where you are, you walk 50 yards, and where the deer are, it's in shelter, yes, so you can end up holding far too much for wind. So what I like to do is wait.
Speaker 2:Where the deer are, it's in shelter, yes, so you you can. You can end up holding far too much for wind. So what I like to do is wait till the deer has its back to the wind. Hold on, say you're going to call a six or eight inch wind drift. Hold on the back of the lungs, pretty high up, so your horizontal crosshair is showing you the maximum amount of the deer that you can hit, so into the neck, and then, if there's no wind whatsoever, you're still going to kill it in the back of the lungs if it takes it six inches, 10 inches, 12 inches the bullet is getting better all the time you think similar to me, because that's been my.
Speaker 3:My go-to most of the season is crosshairs, virtually on the back of the deer spine. If it drops, we're all within the kill zone. If you're too low, you're not but anything there. We know it's going down and that's that's kind of what we've played on this year well, that's.
Speaker 2:I've seen it before where if you have a deer facing into the wind and you don't call enough wind, you're into the stomach and then you have a problem. Yeah, so the big one for me is to wait till the the deer you want, or a suitable deer in the herd is asked to the wind, and then the wind is going to blow up the right way for you I did it really.
Speaker 3:It really has been a an eye-opener for a lot of guests this year especially, and I don't think I think it's been considerably worse weather we've had up here on some days than they've ever experienced before and it has it really has shown a lot of stalkers a big difference we've had this month.
Speaker 2:I've been home, we've had a westerly, a jew, westerly a lot, which is which is rare for weeklots, and it's really pushed deer about into, into places and it's, it's, it's made a fool of me. Quite a few days I've been out, because places where I know there's deer, they're just not there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that exactly we would like. Normally the back of our corries, the deer will always be there. But, as I say, we've had a lot of easterly and um and northerly winds and of course it changes where they want to be. They don't want to be there, they want to be lower down or out out of those cold spots. And yeah, you go up there thinking they're all going to be there and there's nothing and you, you have to carry on walking yeah, yeah, and the brain starts to go how do I get somebody into this?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think the last one was I had a french guy and I said to him like the deer are right over there, but our only route is almost a 10k route around the back of the hill and we'll drop in above them. We got him too high and so he was over the moon, but it was. It was a hell of a trek to get in, get into those yeah, he didn't realize how many times you're questioning their own decision well, that's it.
Speaker 3:When you've got the wind blowing across the top at the sort of 50 miles an hour and the snow drift in your face, it's just like you just keep going, are you sure? Yeah, we'll be all right.
Speaker 2:That's a question for you. Actually, how much information do you give a client during a stock?
Speaker 3:It depends, obviously, when you've got, for example, a European and the language barrier is there. It's mainly pictures drawn in the snow or on a rock trying to describe how far we're going and we just walk in the snow, or on a rock trying to describe how far we're going and we just walk. But, um, if you've got somebody that, um, an english client out, I'll generally try and keep them informed as much as possible. At the end of the day, I think. I think the client likes to know more and and they feel part of the day, rather than just you walking on and not really saying a lot to them yeah, I'd agree with you on that.
Speaker 2:I try and keep them as informed as possible and and I try and tell them the truth as often as I can as well um, if something I had in my head, um hasn't sort of worked out, I sort of say, well, that hasn't gone to plan, but we'll try this. I don't try and sort of bluff it yeah, I think that's part of the plan.
Speaker 3:No, I think the hardest one I had was we had a set of guests that have stalked that land, for I think he's been up there 50 years since he was a boy, boy with his pet, with his dad, and then obviously he's been the father bringing his son up, and now he's the grandfather bringing his grandkids up, and you're just like I can't say anything here because he knows this place probably better than I know this place. So, whatever way I do it, I'll just let, I'll just say we'll go over there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fine a bit of pressure there, all right oh, totally, absolutely.
Speaker 3:But actually to the point where they're not that worried about pulling the trigger. For them it's a day out on the hill. They're not doing the the extreme stuff anymore, they just want a nice meander around. Have a look.
Speaker 2:If something pops up, they'll take a shot yeah, they're the best guys to hunt with you can. You can learn from them and enjoy their company yes, absolutely that's the thing, but it's.
Speaker 3:It's sometimes we've had, but we've gone from one extreme to the other. Then you've got the sort of the youngsters that are super, almost bloodthirsty. They want to be out to get something and you're kind of trying to round them in going well, we'll take our time but we'll get you on something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you meet all sorts.
Speaker 3:Oh, you do so just right. That brings us quite nicely to a point Ammunition and things like that, because you won't have been forced to go over to non-toxic in Ireland yet.
Speaker 2:No, you won't have been forced to go over to non-toxic in ireland yet. No, it's funny actually, today, um, I carried my rifle today I was hunting with a couple of friends and today is my first day moving properly to non-toxic. Okay, um, I tried. It's probably five or six years ago we were shooting a, an out of season call on one of the estates and I tried a 110 grand ttsx sac overloading them and I probably shot over space of a couple of months probably shot 40 or 50 hines and calves right I I found that below sort of 170 180 they were absolutely fine, got decent kills. Anything past that it was different story. Uh, once the speed had scrubbed off the bullet they just weren't and they just weren't knocking them over. So I hadn't used copper since then.
Speaker 2:And then this year I've had serious issue. The last two years in in Ireland I've had serious issues to get ammunition and we can't reload unless you're a member of the Midlands Range and you do it there and there's very less routes you have to jump through. So I have to use factory ammo and I struggled to find any ammunition that I could get a good supply of that my rifle liked that I could get a good supply of that my rifle liked and the last two or three seasons I had a stock of Winchester Ballistic Sutter Tips 130 or something and they're superb and I'm down to my last sort of 10. And I went and bought some Sacco Blade because they were basically the only thing from the local gun shop that would shoot accurately.
Speaker 3:A lot of people have said that the Seiko Glades are very good, and they seem to be pretty accurate as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're the best thing that I've ever shot in my Saco, other than there is the Hornady Precision Hunter 145-grain ELDX shoot well in it. But my missus, who uses my rifle more than me, says they're a bit kicky, so so we couldn't use those. And I do agree that they do recoil a bit. But I've just gone on to the saco blades, so didn't. I didn't pull the triggers there, but within the next few days I'll have me first started report.
Speaker 3:So what caliber are you shooting? Is that a .270, a .308?
Speaker 2:Yeah, .270, yeah, sorry, I forgot. People sometimes ask that. Still, though, it's just always a .217.
Speaker 3:It's one of those things that there seems to be, because that's something we can talk about as well, because, obviously, island minimum caliber, even for taking a Seeker seeker is is actually a, isn't it?
Speaker 2:the minimum it's done on energies, but I think with the I left I don't get into all this crap, but I think to get the required energy you basically have to use a 243 yeah, yeah, okay, two, four, because yeah, that that was so.
Speaker 3:Guys are obviously and people think, like a seeker is, they're a tough animal and even then I think I first came over to ireland with the 243 and was never convinced and ended up buying a 308 because, yeah, they, they'll take it, they'll take a fair whack and still move on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I had John Henry from Bioware Shooting Groundwater here two weeks ago his first trip and he was using his .270 with Hartody 145 grain and we had a hind and a calf. Shot the hind and he shot the calf, shot the calf straight through the shoulders 120 yards and it made it 40, 50 yards, I mean it was. Everything was smashed to pieces inside and he was. He was just totally shocked that it hadn't just gone down. He knew where, where he was pulling the trigger on and he thought there was something wrong that this thing disappeared into the tree line and that's always the thing there's.
Speaker 3:There's so much tree line over there. They just disappear and normally curl up behind something and you're on your hands and knees crawling through nothing yeah, no, they're.
Speaker 2:They're such a hardy little deer. I mean to be quite honest, if I had a choice now and it was easy to change calibers, I most likely have a 30 or 6, because I now don't have a deer dog. Um, right, and I shot it. Shot a 3006 for a couple of years and I did find that that dropped them a little bit quicker. And but yeah, our licensing laws here are so tight it would just take me months to change caliber, so I'm just going to stick with my 270 if it works, it works at the end of the day, so I I love it.
Speaker 2:It's the it's the the right balance. 270, 3006 for me is the right balance of recoil and knockdown power. I've I've had 300 winchester magnets, I've had 338 lapua magnets, 338 wind knives, and I'm I can't handle that, that sort of recoil.
Speaker 3:So I was gonna say the. The 270 is renowned for being a kicky rifle, but but it's flat and true and it seems to be the go-to for most Scottish hill stalkers anyway.
Speaker 2:I mean moderators have taken recoil sort of out of the equation to a certain extent. I do find it, especially with a well-designed stock. I find a recoil with a .270 to be a little bit more linear than even a .308. Find a recoil with a 270 to be a little bit more linear than even a 308. I find 308 to be a little bit jumpy in the 308 rifles that I've used yeah, yeah, yeah and it's sort of.
Speaker 2:It's a bit more of a start like it, as I said, a more upward recoil than the 270.
Speaker 3:I think well, I think a lot of people that obviously, weight wise, is yours a sort of a lightweight barrel or is it a heavyweight barrel that you've got on there? It's a lot.
Speaker 2:It's a sack of thin light too, right? Yeah, I mean, it's a lightweight barrel, but big house can moderate around it, which completely tames it yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think a lot, because obviously my mine's a 308 but it's re-barreled with a heavy fluted barrel and I've had people on the hill this year go, what rifle is that? Because there's no, no kick from it and that's shooting 150 grain. But I think that's the thing, I think a lot of the rifles. People don't like to carry the weight, so they want something a bit lighter, so they go for a thinner, a smaller barrel. But of course it it all bounces around the place and it um, it gives you that little bit more kickback at the end of the day and I mean stock design, has such an impact on felt recoil as well.
Speaker 2:I've seen it when I've changed stocks and put like different carbon fiber stocks or different aftermarket stocks on a rifle. The impact that has on your felt recoil is extraordinary. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah ah, fantastic.
Speaker 3:So just going back to your uh use of non-toxic, have you had any issues with obviously did not dropping exactly and running on for a fair distance?
Speaker 2:or if your shot placement's right, everything's doing what it's supposed to be I haven't really done enough with it, except that what that one year, and it was with one type of non-toxic. But I did find that to me it was, and I remember saying to my wife she was with me a few evenings and I was taking, like when, like you'll notice, like when you're trying to call numbers, you probably take some shots that you you wouldn't be in a hurry to take if you were stalking for pleasure, where you'll take a quartering shot or a front-on shot or something like that. And I did find the non-toxic absolutely fine on the closer-aim stuff. But then, as I say, when it got out past 200 yards it felt like I was shooting it with a 6.555.
Speaker 3:I think that's been our biggest issue on the hill this year. We've had a lot of guests bringing their own rifles with non-toxic and and we've had a bit of a I'd say a disaster, like stags needing three shots to put them down, and it's just like this isn't right, this, this shouldn't be happening. But you put them out, you put the guy out with your rifle and on the like the last day and you hear look, I'm not, I'm nothing about rifle, but just take mine out. One shot, bang, it's over. You're just like that's fine. I think that's been our biggest concern. We're almost at the point of trying to go. Maybe we should just say to everybody you'll just use the estate rifle, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Well, it's actually. It's a route John Fenton has gone in the last few years where he has a number of Tikka and Sakho 270s and he encourages lines to use M now because he knows the rifles are working, he knows the ammunition is good and you don't. We have a lot of European clients and most of their shooting is either at driven hunts or from high seats, so the accuracy of their rifle might not even be great and they might not even realize it if they're firing a few shots a year.
Speaker 3:We found that, yeah, exactly as you say, european clients, we take them down to the target 100 meters, absolutely, bang on, perfect, no problems with their shot. You put them out on the hill and obviously typical Red Stags and Hinds. Our shortest distance is 150, but mostly you're going to be taking a shot which means at 180 and 250 and that's it. They just, they just don't seem to be able to to do that sort of really range with their rifle.
Speaker 2:They're not used to it yeah, but going back to what you're saying about the man, patrick, I've heard so many horror stories with. I mean, you discussed one on our podcast a bit recently where the bullet had completely changed direction as well. Yeah, I don't know what the answer is, but talking to guys who were using these shackle blades in the 270s, there's a friend of mine who's a keeper, he shoots quite a lot of Sika and he says they're great. So that's the route. I'm going to go and try it If they work well for me. I would like just personally would like to use non-toxic, and I don't really know why, other than I think it's the way we're going to have to go eventually. So if I can get on that bandwagon early and accept it and forget about it then and just keep, yeah, well it is with the shotgun I was going to say the shotgun seems to be.
Speaker 3:In the uk, the hse have pretty much ruled that all shots going to have to change anyway, but I think they've actually had a bit of a a back pedal on bullets and they've actually said that yeah, due to inhumane killing, we want you to stick with lead at the moment. So it's weird, isn't it?
Speaker 2:well, I mean fair play to them, because if it's not killing deer as well, then it can't be. They can't force people to use it. If I mean steel shot for bird shooting and stuff, for the quality of pheasants, I'm capable of shooting and that I want to shoot. Steel shot is absolutely fine, and anyone that moans about it, I just think like just get over yourself. But yes, with deer, with deer it's very different. It's like the, the shooter skill. If that isn't the deciding factor, um, then you have to use the best ammunition possible, and if lead ammunition is the best ammunition possible, then we have to keep using it absolutely, and I think I think you're right.
Speaker 3:I think you can put a lot of people on deer, for example, row and stuff like that. They you're going to be taking a sub 100 yard shot potentially, but as soon as you take them to the open hill with all the variables we've talked about, you really want the most accurate and most humane kill up there you can get. And I think lead just still has that little bit extra because it still has that big stump and with the right rifle even a bad shot with a lead shot knocks it over, whereas a bad shot we've seen with copper just drills a pencil hole through it and your deer travels off across the hill yeah, you see, that would work anyway, because that negates all the advantages of your big caliber.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've always said that the 270 compared to the 243, which would be sort of two of the more historically the more popular calibers here. And at the 270, just the smack it hits the deer, takes half the running out of it. Yes, a hard shot deer with a 243. If it does 100 yards. Shoot the same deer in the heart with a 270, it'll do 50. That's a vast generalisation, but from my experience it just smacks them so hard and it just does the job.
Speaker 3:I suppose the world's had hundreds of years of using copper uh, not copper, but actually lead lead bullets so a lot of these manufacturers know how they work and all the rest of it. Obviously there's been a massive push to get non-toxic to market and I think there's been some complete disasters. Seiko have obviously invested a lot of time into making sure that what they're using as their heads are working well, but I think out there there's still a lot more learning to be done to make sure that these non-toxic rounds are actually doing what they're supposed to be doing yeah, and I mean I think as hunters we have to be pragmatic about it as well, and if we have to adjust how we hunt and adjust the shots that we take, then that's just what we have to do.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you can't go out and chest shoot a deer with your 6.5, but 500 yards anymore, then you can't do it. There's no point moaning about it. Yeah, either get something that is capable of doing it or just change how you change how you hunt, change the shots you take I think that's the thing it all goes back to that learning, though, doesn't?
Speaker 3:it all goes back to you as the marksman behind the rifle need to be as accurate as you can be, and I think that's probably where the time needs to be spent to make sure that, every time you go out, you take the time, the consideration, to make sure that that shot you're about to take isn't rushed and it is in the right place yeah, but as you know as well as I do, you cannot get it right every time, oh, no no, no, there's.
Speaker 2:I mean, I had a really experienced guy two days ago and as he pulled the trigger, did like dear, knew we were there. But this hind just did a complete 180 and his shot missed her by two feet. Right now I saw it happen as the trigger went, but his brain had already pulled the trigger before she moved and it was very lucky that it was a clear miss. But I've seen so many times over the years where, as the trigger breaks, deer takes one step and you have a stomach shot through absolutely no fault of the hunter no, well, it kind of goes back to that.
Speaker 3:If you go back to the old bow hunting methods, it's the uh, it's the deer jumping the string, isn't it really it? It it has that moment and it drops or it does something, and that's where the bow hunters have to anticipate that, whereas obviously we've been very lucky with the rifle. But it's, it's there, it does happen.
Speaker 2:You just said it yeah, you can't get it right every time, unless you hear guys when you talk about calibers and stuff and guys are like, oh, I still use a 243 and if you put it in the right place it works well, yes, it does, but if you, who can put it in the right place every time? Yeah, and yeah if it goes. If it goes into the wrong place, I want to be hitting it with something that at least has enough shock to to do a decent job, rather than just a small bullet, the pencil through yeah, but I think I think the key is you've just hit the nail on the head there, the one, the guy we're out shooting a lot of deer.
Speaker 3:You we know it goes wrong. There are people out there that maybe shoot a few deer, a handful of deer every year, and they've been incredibly lucky that every time they've squeezed the trigger, their deer has been hit in the right place and it falls over. So, as far as they're concerned, they've never missed yeah, exactly, well it's.
Speaker 2:I was having this conversation with my wife the other day. We I brought her out on the hill and she's been lucky. She's never wounded one. Now she probably shot a dozen deer, but she shot a hybrid calf from a group and just it fell down in a p-tag and out of the corner of my eye I saw another calf disappear out to the left and in the back of my mind I thought, oh, we're in trouble here and the report of the shot didn't sound great. But we were in. We were in a little river, they were in a PTAG, so the echo sometimes isn't great. But my instant reaction was to take the rifle. I got up on the bank, saw the calf and shot it, just to negate any issues, and she was really upset that she'd wounded one. And I got up there and there was two dead hybrid calves. She'd shot hers perfectly through the heart, which every shot she's taken has been perfect.
Speaker 3:There's definitely something about lady shooters, though. They, they, they listen and they're steady and they do take good shots and and yeah, they, they everybody has problems, but I've always found that on the Hill if I've, if I've got guests out a female guest out compared to a male guest.
Speaker 2:The lady listens to exactly what you say. They're brilliant and they find it easy. It's like you put your cross-haired arrow where you told me, and then I squeezed the trigger slowly and I didn't do a lot of them. You go yeah, it is easy in theory, but but yeah, I like my wife. She's been lucky that the deer has always fallen over. But I think that and it will happen where either a mistake is made or a deer takes a step or the wind takes a bullet.
Speaker 3:I fear for that that day because it will upset her so much and I remember the first year I ever lost it upset me so much oh yeah, no, absolutely, and I think that that goes to show that actually the passion for hunting it's not just about the killing, it's's about the whole conservation side of it, because if you miss something, you spend hours trying to find it or look at it or work out, you take the rifle to the range. What's gone wrong? Why did this not work? And I think that's really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. It is and it's sort of doing everything you can to fix the situation when it does happen or when you do wound one.
Speaker 3:but it's just a fact of hunting like sooner or later there's a chance that it will happen and and it's, it's one of those things when you shoot enough, you do miss and you do, you do have, you do have screw-ups, basically well, the more I keep telling guys who miss with me, the more you shoot, the more you miss.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, missing does not worry me whatsoever, if I can explain it. So I know I've taken a bad shot or I had a bad rest or the deer moved, no issue it's if it's 150 yards and everything is perfect and then I miss. I'm like, ooh, something's not right here. Yeah, what have I done here? Yeah, I couldn't give a hoot about missing. I couldn't. I'd say I missed hundreds of there.
Speaker 3:But to be able to say that is a lot of people would feel they couldn't say that because the street cred's not as good. But actually, as I say, it's all part of the learning curve. And you take that miss and you go. What? What was wrong there? Oh, I was resting on a piece of heather that gave way, or my rest was wrong, or this was wrong, and you just move on from it and you learn from it, don't you?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah exactly. I mean I'm a little bit too old to be worried about street cred, just sort of. I take a piss out of myself more than anyone else does, so I just sort of I take a piss out of myself more than anyone else does.
Speaker 3:That's what it's all about and I think if you're too serious it takes away the fun of actually what you're out there doing and having a laugh and enjoying yourself.
Speaker 2:When I'm shooting with my mates, I'm praying. They miss. They're praying, I miss.
Speaker 3:That's always the way. So, moving on, what's the plans for 2024? Any good hunts coming up? Anything new? Are you going to any of the shows?
Speaker 2:I haven't planned to go to any of the shows. Um, I'm back out to work in taiwan in a week and I'll be home for the last sort of 10 days of the Sika season, so that rules out the British shooting show, because I want to get as much hunting in as I can. Our season finishes end of February. Then there'll probably be some calls to be done, sort of some of the estates we shoot on. They'll kind of look at numbers, march, april time and then maybe do some calls. Maybe not, um, but yeah there's. There's usually a little bit of stuff to be done around that when the grass starts to grow and farmers start complaining that's it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:As soon as the grass starts getting nibbled, the cows have got nothing. Come and shoot the deer exactly and but no, it's.
Speaker 2:It's going to be quite enough year where, um, we've done a lot of renovations on the house here in ireland and we've we've more to do, and then I'm going to be, I'm I'm changing jobs in the new year or in the short sort of should be in the summer. I've been working in taiwan for two years and I'm going on a contract in America. Should be around July or that, so that puts the second half of the year up in the air. I don't know what kind of rotas I'm going to be on, because it'll happen when this job starts.
Speaker 3:So I've booked no hunts for autumn or winter of this year, which I just can't do it until I know when the next job starts. We can see lots of photos of you on american hunts coming up then putting in for tags and getting some time out there.
Speaker 2:Then it's funny you say that, but with my job, when I'm in the country, I'm working and we work 12 hour shifts every day we're there. So unless I go out early or stay on late, you get no time for anything else other than work. And when you've been away for six weeks, the last thing I want to do is stay on late.
Speaker 3:I just want to go home to the missus and little one and I was going to say you've now got a little one as well, so it's, it's, yeah, more important to be home time to see, see them develop exactly if we had sort of weekends off or anything when we're working.
Speaker 2:Yes, they. I definitely trying to have some hunts in, but I do sort of five and a half weeks of working every day when I'm away, so there's no time for anything else, which is absolutely fine. I feel like I don't need to um chase like aspirational hunts anymore, and a I I don't really have the or I can't justify spending the money on it. And B my aspirational hunting is in Ireland and, like I said, I love Scotland. I still absolutely love hunting in Scotland. I haven't done so now in a couple of years, which like that upsets me because I've just done so much in Scotland over the years and I love the traditions in Scotland.
Speaker 3:But yeah, with what we have in ireland and the uk or just, I think it's impossible to be to be honest, though, yeah, just to be able to go snorkeling in ireland is is something that I think is completely magical, as we said at the beginning. So if anybody gets that opportunity, it's. It's a game changer, really it's. It's something you'll never find another location to hunt that's as magical as being over there, especially when you watch a sunrise come up over the hills and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is good, and I mean Seeker in the rut here on Open Hill. I just don't think there's anything to match it.
Speaker 3:No, not the whistling, just with that bit of fog in lane in the bottom of the valley and and and then whistling across at you it's, it's an airy thing yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:I've limited experience of the red roof in scotland, but the seeker rush is just. It's something that's when it's on, when it's proper, proper hot rush. It's just incredible it's the red.
Speaker 3:The red rut's good, but I don't think it ever. It doesn't seem to have the same um effect on the body as as a stag, as a see, as a big seeker stag, or two seeker stags whistling, and you're in the middle of it and you're thinking which one's going to come running down this hillside to fight? And I'm going to be, I'm going to be there yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It's a special experience for for somebody who's into like, really into their hunting I mean, I'm I'm not into shooting trophies myself or anything like that, but just to be there and to witness it and to see the effect it has on people who are crazy about their trophies yeah. But when they see a big seekke stack smashing off some header or something like that, they just absolutely lose themselves.
Speaker 3:But, as I say, it's that look as well, especially when they turn and look at you and it's just like, yeah, okay, it really doesn't like me, it's got a face on it. That's pretty evil they're special animal they are, they really are.
Speaker 2:I just hope they don't lose the respect that they deserve and just through the changing legislation stuff here, I hope they don't become a pest species yeah, yeah, hopefully not.
Speaker 3:Well, we haven't even mentioned that obviously ireland doesn't just have seeker and reds, that you've also got fallow over there as well, haven't you?
Speaker 2:yeah, and a huge um increase in the numbers of fallow in certain areas as well. I mean, I've I've heard anecdotal stories of sort of guys shooting 200 a month in certain areas, well and but much the same, as it is sort of down around gloucestershire and places in the uk where the numbers just exploded with covid and but yeah, we've got some big groups of fallow. There's very few fallow in which none where the numbers just exploded with COVID, but yeah, we've got some big groups of fallow. There's very few fallow in which none on the areas I shoot, but there are some in the plot.
Speaker 3:But yeah, they're more over Tipperary direction and out towards the Midlands, aren't they?
Speaker 2:yeah, Midlands and down. There's a lot in Waterford as well. I used to shoot something in Warford back 20 years ago but yeah, that wouldn't be my first choice. A deer hunt yeah, we do have a lot of fellow in Ireland. I think they're the most widely distributed deer in Ireland.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, no, because I think we've only I've only ever been out with a lad that shot one and it was massive. It was just a huge body but not a massive head on it, but it was just just the size of it. I remember trying to lug it into the back of his pickup and get it away and it was yeah, it was just something to, something to have experienced you had a big old loves they are.
Speaker 3:They certainly are. So, um, obviously. I think that pretty much kind of brings us to a nice, nice round and off point. There You've explained everything about what you do and all the rest of it. Yeah, life has changed slightly for you. You're no longer professional hunting, as you say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as I say, it's sort of quite a nice balance. Now I get like five or six months off a year, work five or six months and get plenty of time with with family and do a bit of hunting. Now we've moved back to ireland so yeah, couldn't be, can't complain.
Speaker 3:As I said, I was gonna say it sounds like a, it sounds like a perfect lifestyle. To be honest, if it's, uh, if it's doing that for you, yeah, yeah, it's not bad.
Speaker 2:It's not bad. And I have a very, very understanding wife and she loves her stocking as well, so oh well.
Speaker 3:Well, next time you're over in scotland, come up, we'll take you out on the row or something like that, and you can have a you can have a crack up here at a couple of row bucks or something like that oh, she'd love that.
Speaker 2:She's actually. She's from east yorkshire and has row all around her, but she's never shot one well, we had a guy on the hill this year who has been.
Speaker 3:He was absolutely desperate to shoot a row. He lives down south row everywhere comes up stalking in Scotland but was more interested when this row walked out than anything. It's like, don't worry about the reds, let's get that row. It's like no, you've paid for reds, we're going after reds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people are funny.
Speaker 3:They are absolutely, but that's just the way it is.
Speaker 2:Anyway, we'll round this one up there, but thank you ever so much for your time.
Speaker 1:That's been absolutely spot on. That's been a pleasure, thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Thank you again for listening to the outdoor given podcast. If you've got any comments or anything, or any suggestions, please either drop us a message. Don't forget to leave us a review if you get a chance, either via the apple platforms or spotify. All the reviews help and help the show gain popularity. We've got some new guests recorded already. I think our next guest on is going to be ben from dear central, telling us all about what dear central can offer the one shop stop type of thing. So stay tuned for that in a couple of weeks anyway, we'll see you soon.