The Outdoor Gibbon
Join me on my journey through stories and interviews talking to like-minded individuals. It doesn’t matter who you are this podcast will hopefully educate and guide you through the world deerstalking, shooting and the outdoor world.
The information in these podcasts is for you to enjoy and develop you own opinions, if you take everyday as a school day you will see the bigger picture.
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The Outdoor Gibbon
64 Training Tips from Kirkbourne Spaniels: Mastering the Art of Canine Companionship
Darren from Kirkbourne Spaniels, a two-time UK Gun Dog Trainer of the Year winner, shares his journey from farming background to professional dog trainer, revealing practical techniques and philosophy for effective dog handling and training.
• Building a career from a lifelong passion for working dogs and field sports
• Matching dog breeds to specific purposes and activities
• Understanding "imprinting" - how handlers transfer their energy to their dogs
• Common training mistakes like overusing verbal commands
• The impact of COVID on dog breeding and training
• Essential training techniques for recall and retrieving
• The importance of well-timed, measured discipline
• Supporting new generations in field sports and dog work
• Preserving field sports traditions through community support
If you want to learn more about Darren's training methods or join his gundog club, visit his website or find him on social media.
https://www.kirkbournespaniels.co.uk/
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Thinking about doing the PDS1 or PDS2 use the link below.
https://www.shootingandhuntingacademy.co.uk/link/6f1QuV
Using this link above you will get a Free PDS1 Shooting assessment with myself in scotland
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Outdoor Gibbon podcast. On a dreary, wet day, where's the sun and where's that really nice weather gone? We are now at episode 64 and we're going to talk to Darren from Kirkbourne Spaniels All things dog training. I think we cover many topics in this, but before we start let's have a look at how things have been going where we are in the year. What's happening so far?
Speaker 2:We're into May now and I do apologise that we've been a bit slow on getting some podcasts out. As I said, it's a busy time of the year with the roebuck season really well into, well underway. Everything else going on disasters come, vehicles and all sorts of other things, which has slowed me down a bit. And today, finally, I get a chance to be in the studio and actually get something recorded. The the season is just racing on. We've had absolutely phenomenal weather in this country, I think in the northeast ofeast of Scotland. If you look at the rain charge, we are actually in an area that hasn't had rainfall or hadn't had rainfall for over two months. The last few weeks have been horrendous, with on and off rain showers.
Speaker 2:Really nice that one of our guests came over from Ireland won the one of the first competitions we ran at Christmas. I think we had a roebuck stalking, a beanie hat and a mug, and we had um Collie come over from, from Northern Ireland to stalk with me. He brought his friend Luke. We had three, four good days out. Uh, stalking row, the the lots of deer showed lots of deer in the wrong place, and we did connect eventually with a fantastic roebuck at literally the last knockings, just on our way back to the car, I made a joke and said don't worry, there'll be one. On the way back to the car, and it was almost textbook that we were 30, 40 yards off the vehicle and this roebuck wandered out into the track and he got a fantastic shot. I did then make a joke that I had a friend called Dave hiding in the bushes who had let the buck out. So much hilarity for the rest of the trip. But we had the next day again lots of good-looking deer. Unfortunately they just were on the wrong side of the fence and doing things properly. We decided to watch them rather than to do anything else.
Speaker 2:So what's the next highlight in the diary? I think the next show for me will be the scottish game fair in july and I know I'm saying july and we're well, we're almost at the end of may already, so it won't be long. That'll be a really good highlight of the year. And if we get to july, that means it won't be far off for the, the stag season to be starting. Really, I know there is no season for uh, for stags and and roebuck in scotland anymore, but uh, yeah, that will be the kind of official starting time of of the old stag season again and uh, and then it's winter on its way. Where has the year gone? Halfway through it already and we're already looking at the winter months. Our pheasants will be, uh will be with us, hopefully not too soon. We've still got to get the pen sorted out and things like that, but uh, yeah, it'll. It's certainly flying by again. It's a very fast year, so let's not waffle on for too long.
Speaker 2:Let's dive in and have a chat with Darren and find out a bit more about dog training. The outdoor given podcast is proudly sponsored by the shooting and hunting academy, an online training platform and uk registered learning provider that provides a host of accredited and nationally available courses and masterclasses delivered by leading industry experts. Hello and welcome to the outdoor given podcast. Today I am joined by darren from kirkbourne spaniels. We are going to talk about all sorts of things, from shooting to dog training, etc. Etc. How you doing. I'm all right, peter. How are you? Thank you for having me along. No problem at all, thank you. So let's get a bit of background as to sort of who you are and and what's led you into training dogs.
Speaker 3:Well, it is a long story but I will briefly tell you about it. So I'm from a farming background, so everybody around me, when you're from a farming background, you know about vermin, you know about the land and the woods and the birds. So that's how it originally started. My next-door neighbor was a gamekeeper. I used to see him walking in with a few rabbits over his shoulder and his two-two rifle on his on his shoulder, and I used to be so keen as a child oh, I'm blooming it. Can I, can I come and you know, watch it. And he eventually let me gut a rabbit, you know, and I I thought it were brilliant. My mum thought I was disgusting, but that's how it started. And he had Spaniel, he was a Spaniel man. And then we got our own Spaniel and I trained that and people loved my dog and said you know, why don't you enter competitions? Why don't you do this? And all I wanted to do was hunt my dog and shoot over it and that's what I did originally. And, um, so it it grew where, um, I had more than one dog and I'm not just a spaniel man. I've got labradors as well cocker spaniels and springer spaniels, um, and labradors, so I've got a varied um mix of dogs myself. I do a lot of picking up. I was the head picker up at Harewood House at Leeds. I have my own shoot. I own my own shoot. I'm in partnership with two others. I've got our own shoot and I am a dog trainer.
Speaker 3:And in 2018, I won Gun Dog Trainer of the Year in the UK, which were really good. You know. I enjoyed collecting that accolade. Then, in 2023, I won again. So I've won it twice. I've came second once and I couldn't find out this year where I'd got, but it is what it is.
Speaker 3:I'm not bragging about um winning these things, because I actually don't do a lot to achieve it. I just be me and um. You know, it's like when you see a guy building a stone wall, I'll say to him wow, what an amazing job you've done of that stone wall. Well, it's just normal to him, you know, and it's just a normal practice. And then when he sees me training my dog, he's goes wow, how have you done that? I said, well, this is normal, you know, and that's it's just, it's a natural thing that I do and I love it and I love meeting people, I love discussing dog training and I've got my own club.
Speaker 3:I retired from the waste industry which was my let's call it a proper job and decided to go forward and just follow my hobby. And when I did that, um, I was persuaded by a few people can we all meet together on a wednesday night and do some dog training? I said, yeah, fine. That then escalated in can we come next week? And it just grew and grew and um, now it's one of the biggest privately owned gundog clubs in uk and I have thousands of members coming. Um, so, yeah, that's that's basically it. You know, um, that's me in a nutshell. Oh, fantastic well.
Speaker 2:So obviously, yeah, the passion's there. Have you felt, well, that the big question is? They've always, they always say don't turn your hobby into into a job. Has that affected your enjoyment of dog training? Now that it's actually a business, peter.
Speaker 3:I always said that if I went let's call it work if I went to work dog training and I actually felt like it was a task and I were like, oh no, I've got to get up in morning, I'd stop it straight away. But every morning I get up. Every day I see different customers, I meet some beautiful people, I meet some idiots as well, as we do along the way, and but I meet loads of nice dogs, loads of nice people, and there's not one day where I can just go. I'm not enjoying this. So hobby turned into a job.
Speaker 2:I'm actually still doing my hobby that's good, because that, I think that's the big thing. Like I've got friends that photographers, and they're fantastic photographers. But as soon as now they're, they they're full on, that's their business, and you just see them and it's like are you still enjoying it? It's like I think I'll do something else now, because it's it, it just takes over, doesn't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can imagine that feeling must be horrible. But you know, when I used to be in the waste industry, I'd do five days a week and then I'd be training every day myself my own dogs. And then I'd do five days a week and one day I just said I've done it, I'm done, I'm going to call that it. And that's what I did. I just backed in and followed my dream and I absolutely love it. And now, you know, on the training side of things, I work maximum two days a week. And then on the shoot side of things, I'm working at the minute not much, but very soon it's going the, it's gonna hit the fan because we've got loads to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's, it's, it's already. As I was just saying, I think, uh, there's obviously you've got uh, pheasants. Eggs have just started being collected for the hatcheries. I've just been servicing incubators and getting, uh, getting hatches all sorted out. So it's, uh, it will come around very quickly.
Speaker 3:I can I know that for you, yeah, yeah, I know, and and, and. The thing is there's we've got a keeper on board with us and there's three of us in partnership that I I set it up and then I I then thought this would be great if I'm not on my own and I got some investors and that's what we've done. Um, there is we do predominantly pheasants. There are partridge there, there are deer on the site and there's a lot of vermin on the site. When I took over this land, I noticed lots of vermin and we just put a few thousand birds down and I'm thinking this is a bad recipe. So I see it up out there killing vermin on an evening, you know, and, and that's that's what I do. I, I shoot, I dog train and I, I kill vermin very good, very good.
Speaker 2:So let's, let's get into the dog training. Then you obviously say you've got spaniels and labradors to, as, as most people would say, the world apart type of dogs. What is it? The spaniel dies half trained and the labrador comes half trained. Um so so let's look at this point. Obviously, yeah, most people have the spaniel style of breed. They're a bit more of the, they're the beating dog, they they'll go in, they'll break cover and things like that, and cockers as well. Yeah, why for you that particular dog?
Speaker 3:Well, I often get asked the question I'm thinking about getting into shooting, what dog do I need? Well, the first thing I want to know is what discipline are you going to be in there? You know it's pointless having a Ferrari when you just want a peg dog. So I find out what type of sports they're going to do or what section of the sport. But my honest answer is, peter, that a straight down the line dog is a Springer Spaniel. You know I also do wildfowling and with the wildfowling you need a big, powerful dog. You know, when I'm sat there in the freezing temperatures and I shoot a goose and it lands in an estuary and when it's shot it lands in water, by the time your dog's got it it's 200 yards down the estuary. You need a big, powerful dog. The closest you could get to that without going into another breed would be a large male Springer Spaniel. However, I've got Labradors to do that. So you, large male springer spaniel, however, I've got labradors to do that. So, um, you know it's the right tool for the job. So I ask them often what what you're doing. Tell me what you're doing and then I'll tell you the right answer. You know, if it's a beating dog and you want to do a bit of picking up, cool, get yourself a spaniel. It can be a cocker spaniel or a springer spaniel, but each dog will do it. You know, each dog will do every task, some better than others. A Labrador's not going to hit cover like a spaniel and a springer spaniel's not going to quite hit cover like a cocker spaniel. However, there'll be some people out there saying my Labrador, he smashes through cover. Yeah, he will do, do, but there's a potential of damage. You know, because he's a big lump, he's a big machine and he's smashing through brambles. He's going to come out damaged. So the right tool for the job.
Speaker 3:So when I'm out shooting on my own shoot, I used to be all. I used to have all my tweeds on and and I used to put all the guns out and talk really nice to him and and I found that I didn't enjoy it. So I go out beating. You know I'm part of the beating team. I have my Labradors at my side and my Spaniels hunting, and my Labradors are there for any retrieves that's required, or my Spaniels are there for hunting. So I'm fortunate because I've got lots of dogs and I can mix them up. But the type of dog is down to what you actually require. You know, what do you want? Because I've got um, one of my customers he does a lot of deer shooting and he's got two labradors and he told me.
Speaker 3:He said I'm going to train my labradors to actually track uh, deer and I said, well, that's great. And he said, do I? I need to do anything specific for that. And I said, well, we need to train it first as a gundog and then we can do some scent trails. I didn't have to do any scent trails with him.
Speaker 3:He naturally got his dog to find deer once he'd shot it and now he's got. He has deer sat at bottom of his um high seat or wherever he is and he often puts videos up, um and his, his dogs just sat there while roe deer or whatever's coming across and he knocks them down and then down he gets and gets them, you know, and his dog sits there pleasantly. Not all dogs can do that, because the hardest thing for any dog to do is do nothing. You know, you get, you try and get a dog to do nothing and they don't understand it, but they just don't comprehend that. You know, I've got a waggy tail here. I need to move. No, no, you have to wait there for two hours until I get the chance of possibly a shot, you know so yeah yeah, 100 and that that's I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people kind of expect it's going to be really quick and easy. But yeah, to get a dog to sit still and not do anything is is probably the hardest part. To get a dog to run off and and break through cover well, that's pretty straightforward. They naturally want to do that yes, yeah, it's it.
Speaker 3:Um, it swings them roundabouts, you know. But I want an all-round dog. So when I want it to go in cover, I want it to go like crazy. When I want it to walk at eel, when we're going to the next drive, the next pegs or whatever it is, I want them to be really nice and steady at eel. Um, I never put them on leads when, once they're trained, they're never going on a lead. You know I I'd never take a dog if I had to take it on a lead. Um, I just can't. I don't want to be fighting with brambles and leads going underneath brambles and over branches. So they've all got to know stay around, dad, until I tell you not to. And that's how I train, I think.
Speaker 2:I need to come to your training school. No, mine are okay, they do the things. It's obviously yeah busy. I think that's the big problem. I think people, let's go right back to the beginning. We spoke there about people getting a dog and, at the end of the day, if you don't put the time in or you don't have the time to put in, the results that you'll get from it will never be as good as somebody that puts more effort in it. I think that's where we're heading with that. Um, and I think that's the big key. It's what would you say for somebody looking to to get they're? They're a weekend shooter or deer stalker. What sort of would you point them in the direction of? We've already said spaniel for the guy that that's going out once the all-rounder, but let's, let's go, look at that sort of. They're going to be weekend training and things like that, and the dog's going to be at home most of the time probably yes, um, if we're going deer stalking, is that the question?
Speaker 2:yeah, let's say somebody's going deer stalking and they're looking for something so there's there'll be.
Speaker 3:There will be people out there saying I take my cocker spaniel. I tell, take me alsatian, I take my hpr, I'll take my labrador. It's whatever really fits you. You know, if you're driving a car, you need to enjoy it, and if you, if you're going out there with a dog that you don't like and you don't think it's going to do it, it's not going to work. You've got to be a team. So a good friend of mine, like I said, he takes his labradors and they do an excellent job, you know, and and they do. But there are dogs out there and there will be people there saying I've got a cocker spaniel that'll do that and that's great, well done. I'm not suggesting it can't what I am suggesting. You try and sit a cocker down for two hours underneath an ice seat compared to a labrador its tail will be wagging that much it'll leave a mark on the floor, you know.
Speaker 3:So there are reasons. We it's certain breeds you know in our tasks that we need, so I probably say labrador okay, and I suppose the lab's kind of quite happy once it's.
Speaker 2:Once it's been out and it's had a bit of a walk in the morning, it'll quite happily just lounge around and and chill out until you get back in the afternoon, kind of thing normally.
Speaker 3:From what I've seen, yeah, well, I've, I've, I've had many Labradors and I've got one. Well, it's in the living room now Mine aren't all kenneled. It's in the living room now and he will not move until I do, you know, and you can take him out here and he'll do. He'll smash any retrieve that you give him and he does it in such power. He's so powerful, he'll clear fences, he'll clear walls, but put him in living room and he just lay there forever. You know he so um. He is a big, powerful dog and everybody knows him and and um, who trains with me, and they really like him.
Speaker 2:But it can chill out as well and the chill out, chill out needed I think that's one of the common misconceptions. People go oh, I couldn't have a spaniel because of the energy and I couldn't have this there. It's like you look at mine, like in an evening they'll be in the lounge with us and they're just completely and utterly chilled. They don't do anything, they settle down and that's it. It's different story if I disappear off out. My wife then has a battle with them because they'll pace around the house looking for me and all the rest of it. But most of the time they're just like yeah, we'll wait until oh, you're going out, we're sat there, you're putting your boots on, can we come with you? Kind of thing. And I think that's the thing. I think a lot of it just goes down to the energy.
Speaker 3:You feed the dog obviously changes how the dog behaves in most cases it is, yeah, and I I am currently writing about, um, something that nobody writes about, so it's going to be quite good when it gets out there, but, um, if somebody listens to this today, they'll probably go. I'm going to write about that before darren releases it, but it doesn't matter. I'm not that type person, but imprinting yep so imprinting in um.
Speaker 3:I used to hire a guy on the landfills to fly hawks to get rid of the seagulls, because the permit from the environment agency said you can't have seagulls. So we had to hire this guy and I was talking to him and he had a bird of prey and he said he's imprinted it on him and I I wanted to hear about it and basically thought it were his mum, you know, and the bird did everything for him because he thought it was his mum and um or its mum. And then I thought do you know what? This is so true, this imprinting on dogs? So, because of the type of person I am, I watch people and you've heard that saying the owner's like the dog or the dog's like the owner, and it's so true. You know, I had one lady come out. She's come for a one-to-one and she went the book for a one-to-one and she um, when the book for a one-to-one, peter, they also online. They'll tell me what their issues are and so if they're telling me that it's just a bog off dog, I'm not going to stick it in middle of a field and lay off lead. You know, I can prepare. Anyway.
Speaker 3:This lady said my dog's absolutely nuts. It's on the email it said my dog will not sit still. It just what, bouncing off the wall all the time and will not calm down. I can't cope, it's a cocker. And I said, okay, um, let's have a meetup. And, bearing in mind we're talking about imprinting, so I pulled up, parked in front of the pond. I saw the car come round and I got out and I introduced myself to this lady. I said, and I put my hand out and I were about to say hi, I'm Darren. And she said hi, there, are you Darren? I said, yeah, I am. She's going. Oh, brilliant, oh, I love to meet you. It's really nice. You want to meet my dog. So she's nuts, right, this woman is nuts. And I know what was going to happen she, she's going to open the boot of a car and a nutty cock is going to jump out. Yeah, and this is where the imprinting comes in. And I, I shoot. She wore me. She'd worn me out within five minutes.
Speaker 3:Peter, she was that energetic, this woman, and um, I said, um, can I, can I see your dog please? And she even like patting all over looking for keys and all excited to open boot and dog shot out and it's flying around absolutely nuts. And I said can you put it on a lead please? And she did, and she's just nonstop talking up into the field, she, nonstop talking. I said let your dog off a lead. And it was flying around Beautiful dog, really good dog. And I said call your dog back back in.
Speaker 3:It came back in and she put it back on the lead and she said so what do you think? I said you're bloody nuts. And she looked at me. I said this is what's wrong with your dog. It's been you. You've imprinted on this dog. You're, you're crazy, you know. And you just calm down. I need just calm down. And you know what, peter? She's a beautiful, lovely woman and I trained with her for maybe eight years and what a woman she became with the right type of coaching. She were calm with the dogs, she were brilliant, her dogs were brilliant and she was good.
Speaker 3:But my point is is imprinting on? We imprint on dogs, you know, and and so when you say your dog sits there nice and calm on an evening, that's because it's normal. It's a normal thing to do. We're creating habits, we're creating normality, we're creating good habits. If it was normal to jump up and down in the morning. Your dogs would jump up and down in the morning. So we create habits and we have to try and remove the bad habits and persuade the handler, the owner, that what they're doing is not quite where they should be going so let's let's go back, because obviously five years ago we had an absolute.
Speaker 2:Well, we had that, that the disease covid hit and we saw the market get flooded because everybody was trapped at home and all of a sudden, but prices went through the roof. Everybody wanted a dog. How has that affected the dog training market and the dog breeding market, do you think?
Speaker 3:so from a dog training perspective, it was brilliant because everybody needed to train a dog. They come out of COVID and they had quite a long time with an untrained dog. So they are coming to training, but without I'm not being selfish there, I'm being honest. So we got lots of business from it. However, once everything had relaxed, however, what I'm seeing is crazy dogs that have been untrained. They were only purchased because they were sat at home and the only way they could get out is by walking the dog and exercising the dog. So why not? Let's get a cocker puppy, let's get a Labrador. And what? Then? Some?
Speaker 3:There were some people that went we're onto this, we've got a cocker, we've got a cocker in season, we're going to breed it. Look at price, the two grand these dogs. Right, we'll breed them. And so they've bred the pups, they've bred the mother, they've got a litter of pups. They're then pushing them up to 4,000 and 5,000 pound a pup, selling them, and people were buying them because that was the going rate. They weren't docking them, they weren't dew clawing them, and now we're seeing dogs in the field with long tails getting smashed up and they're having vet bills. There's somebody who comes to my club. She's got a lovely cockered spaniel. It's had to have its tail removed and you know, she probably bought it off one of those breeders.
Speaker 3:Now, um, I'm really against not docking tails, because if, if you don't dock tails that cause so much damage and I'm not saying that a dog with a long tail can't do a job, of course it can it's just got a waggy thing on end. That's like a flag. If you're pushing it through brambles, you're going to get a vet bill. There'll be somebody. There'll be the odd one saying, well, my dog's never hurt its tail. Well, you haven't pushed it through any of my brambles. That's all I'd say. Yeah, you know, and, and, and, and. They can go a full life without any issues. But if you're smashing them through brambles on a daily basis, like I have to do on my shoot, um, my, my dogs, when I I have to swap my dogs to work that hard, the cut to ribbons.
Speaker 2:if they had a long tail, it would be horrible and it is one of the big things, I think, spaniard, the spaniel breed, especially because the end of the tail has that naturally, it just gets very furry, it's like it is like a flag, as you say. Everything catches in it every bramble, every, every thistle, every gorse, it's just yeah. And and seeing them bleed, it's a it's worse, it's bad enough watching them run through bracken and slice their tongues and blood everywhere and people are like your dog's bleeding.
Speaker 3:It's like that's fine, don't worry about it yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but the the covid question really is um, we had a massive influx of pups. Unfortunately, they were bred by anybody. Anybody who had a um had a bitch. They would breed with it just to make money not everybody. So I want to make that clear. There were responsible breeders there who bred the dog because they were going to anyway and they did all the health checks. And um, there's dogs out there with all the hip scores, all the health checks and perfectly good pups. But on the other spectrum there were people out there were just breeding for money and it's it's just.
Speaker 3:It has made quite a mess of the pool. You know that the gene pool for cockers, because they've just didn't matter who's whose um dog that we're using, as long as it was same dog. They're calling it kennel club registered, which it can officially. If they're both kennel club registered, they can. And then you end up with a dog that's not being particularly health tested. Uh, very well, I, if I breed a dog like I've, I've just mated one of mine and the only reason I mated one of mine is purely so I can have another one out of her. Um, it's not to make money. Um, that maybe people say well, I'm not telling the truth. But believe me, if you want to pop off my dog, just ask me and you can have them. If you're a reasonable person you can have them. Um, I just want one out of the litter. A little bit complicated we had to. I had to go all the way down to south wales uh, five and a half hour drive, and she wouldn't stand for the dog and we ended up artificially inseminating it.
Speaker 3:So it's cost me a couple of grand already, but, um, I just want one pup if I get two, I'll be really happy because my partner can have that one, but that I know exactly that because we we bred my spaniel.
Speaker 2:She's lovely, she's small and it was I've always. The first two spaniels ever had were big. They were the. They were sort of the, the true big english springer spaniels and I managed to get yeah, traditional, but they were big brutish dogs at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:And then I I got brayer off a friend of mine that was uh, I was doing some stalking for him and I came home with a pup. Well, all hell broke loose when I brought this pup home. But she was small and it was really nice and she everybody's like oh, it's a bit of a cocker in there. It's like, no, she's true english springer, she's just small. So I bred mine and then we had lockdown and my plan was always just to breed the dog, to get another one out, my line basically going forward. And we sold our pups at very reasonable prices and that was that we bred her again just purely because she kept having phantom pregnancies and that was at the end of lockdown. So it was like one of those everybody's oh oh. You did it again for money, it's like well, I had three pups. One was given away as a stud dog fee. I sold one. That's hardly making money and if anybody thinks you make money out of that, by the time you've got your vet bills, everything.
Speaker 2:You had to register it yeah yeah, if you're out there charging thousands of pounds, I can understand that, but again, so I've now got my two bitches that come down the line so I can keep my my line of spaniels going, and, and, to be honest, each one of them is completely different.
Speaker 2:It's the joy of actually breeding dogs you get one that will do one thing and one that does something else. But again, as you say, it's taking that time and effort to to make sure what you're doing you've done right and you know the line that you're trying to achieve. Because I think, as you say, the cockers especially have been massively diluted, and then I think, labs just as bad as well. Yeah, they were a big one for selling.
Speaker 3:They were a big one for selling. I travel five and a half hours to breed with my dog to a gentleman who the lines are very far away from everything, because you can put in on the kennel club, you can put in the sire and the dam and find out the coefficient of breeding level. And then the only way I felt comfortable was to lower it. Um with my dog and I went all the way down to wales, met a brilliant welsh guy, spent three days with him, lovely family um, and bred it with a fully health tested field trial champion. Because I wanted, if you're going to start at that level, you're going to anything after that. It's all about you and how much effort you put in. So I've started with the best um. Let's see what happens.
Speaker 3:If she doesn't take with, there is a chance with the artificial insemination that um, because I had to have blood tests as well whilst we're down. There is a chance that she's not going to take because we may have been late. She did a test to find out whether she were ovulating and she said she over ovulated two days ago. We may have been late. She did a test to find out whether she was ovulating and she said she ovulated two days ago, we might have a chance. And what she did warn me of which I didn't know and which will be good for our listeners is that if there's only one pup in there, there is a potential that she can go through the full pregnancy and you not know, and she won't produce milk, very much milk.
Speaker 3:But because she's not grown, she's actually not. You'd think, oh, she's not having pups, but the body of the dam actually doesn't go into labour and therefore the pup inside insider actually dies and everything goes wrong and you end up losing both. So, with that in mind, I'm going to have a scan in two and a half weeks time to see if there is anything there. If there's only one there, I know that it's going to cost me another grand to get her opened up for a pup to come out. Yeah well, it's worth understanding it is exactly.
Speaker 2:And again it goes to how many times you actually have them covered and things like that can actually affect how many pups you get. And then I didn't realize this, but the first time, obviously, we covered brea twice and we ended up with six pups. The second time it was at the end of a shoot day and I knew the guy that I needed was coming and I said to him look, she's. She's in the back of the truck and you've got your dog here that we're standing around drinking tea. Quickly, that the dogs cover each other. Thanks very much, I might come and see you on. I didn't go and see him again because I was just like well, she's covered once, we'll see what we get.
Speaker 2:And we only got three and it was just like it's just it's crazy, isn't it, that it's how many times you do it, but again, it was one of those perfect things. The second pregnancy for her was just to have three. Well, we actually had four. We had a, we had a tiny runt and we tried to keep it alive all night, but unfortunately my daughter was like, oh, we, we've done our best and she called it pine cone or something like that. That was it. But we got three pups out of that and and I'm like that's perfect, great. And then that was it. So, yeah, it's um, it's just one of those things to make sure that whoever you go to to look for getting your dog off, as you've got the right paperwork and hopefully it's a decent line at the end of the day of course.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, the lady who I went down to see, um the vet down there, she were brilliant and she were explaining stuff to me and the dogs are bang on date. You know, some people say, well, my dog's always two days late, my dog's always one day early. Well, that's actually not true. This vet were explaining it to me. The day the pups will be born is the day that they start ovulating. So you know, if she's ovulated and it's gone over three days and you breed her on the last day and still catch her, you'll actually say, ah, she mated on the third day. So that's when we start counting. You actually start counting from ovulation, so two days before. So, and then people say, well, she's late or she's early. You know, and that's, that's how it happens it is.
Speaker 2:It's quite phenomenal really. Having gone through it all several times now, I'm not allowed to have another litter unless I'm staying at home, because normally what happens is we'll have a litter of pups and I end up going off, either stalking or or have to go off with work, and my wife is just like you are not leaving the house this time. If we have more, you have to stay at home and deal with it yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I guess you have to learn your lesson there. You know, if you want to keep stalking, you want to keep shooting, you're going to have to have less pups exactly.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely, absolutely. So let's, let's go back to so we've got that person that's gone out and they've chosen their dog that they're going to use. What let's have a look at, say, top five tips early days if you've got you, you're going out to get your pup, you've got it.
Speaker 3:What top five tips for for starting out, kind of thing so if we think about the main problems that people come to me with um, that's probably where I'd base my top tips on okay um, people often come to me.
Speaker 3:90 percent of people come to me because the dog won't come back to them and I call them bog off dogs and I feel like I'm a professional bog off dog trainer, because that's that's what 90 percent of them come and the dog won't come back. So recall is massive. But what normally happens is the dog will get let's say it'll get somebody's slipper, get the child's slipper in the house and the puppy picks it up and what happens? Oh mom, it's got my slipper. And the child chases after the dog and grabs hold of the slipper. Mom shouts at it, it ends up in a cage. And what we're doing again, don't forget, we're imprinting. So the dog knows if I pick something up, I'm going to get told off. So I'm going to run an hide and this comes out in the training. So recall's massive.
Speaker 3:And what I tend to do is I only call my dog back when it's coming back. So, just for example, if my dog's running away, I'll make no sound. Because if I make a sound as it's running away, it's like I'm celebrating the fact that it's bogging off. So I keep quiet. So if my young pup decides to go away from me, I'm quiet. When it turns and looks at decides to go away from me, I'm quiet. When it turns and looks at me, I'm going good, dog, come here. So when it's running towards me, I'm making a sound for it coming towards me, so it's getting verbal reward for coming back to me. Anything other than that I ain't giving you nothing. And that's when people come to me for this issue with recall. I'm the only person they'll ever pay to tell them to shut the gob. You know I have to tell them shut your mouth and watch your dog come back, cause they're shouting come on, tilly, come on, tilly, come on. And the dog can hear mom and dad shouting the dog. And the dog thinks what I'm doing is fine, listen to mom and dad. They're going crazy behind me. So dog thinks what I'm doing is fine, listen to mom and dad. They're going crazy behind me, so I must be doing it right. And dog gets further away, so the shout even louder, in an even nicer voice and dog thinks wow, this is brilliant. The further I get, the louder mom and dad get. They sound happy and they're just celebrating the fact that they're not together. So the best recall of all is shush.
Speaker 3:Now, going back to your question, that the tips I would say when your dog's coming back to your, praise it. When it walks away from you, say nothing. You know so so maintain that it gets nothing for walking away, but lots of things for coming back. And that's a good method of imprinting come here and you'll get praise, go away, you get nothing. So that's a good thing. But normally what happens?
Speaker 3:People come to us with a six month old pup, which is too late. Well, it's not too late. It's too late to already tell them these little bits about puppy training. But they've been to local, local village hall and they've got somebody like barbara woodhouse for some of our members might not remember her and that giving them all these methods, that just don't work in a field. So we've started doing a puppy class where you come and we tell it right from it just coming out with its injections. Once it can pass its injections, we come to our puppy class and we tell you all this, don't do this, don't do that. So recall is a big one. This, don't do this, don't do that, so recall is a big one. Um, the other one. I would suggest that people again I'm referring to what people have problems with. So how do we deal with it?
Speaker 3:As a young dog, a young pup is retrieving, so they throw out an item out and the dog goes out, picks it up, then just runs around the field and not come back. Well, that normally occurs because when you did it as a puppy you've thrown it something. It's gone and picked it up, just as you wanted. It comes back, you take it off it and you'd say good, dog, and what you've actually done there again we're imprinting what you're actually doing there is you're saying you can have that, bring me it back, and you can't have it.
Speaker 3:So so what I do when you see me training my dogs, peter, you'll see I'll send my dog for a retrieve and show no signs whatsoever to take it off. Take the retrieve off it and it'll just. All my dogs just stand around me looking at me. When am I? When do you want this, dad? You know so as a young dog what we do. We give it the retrieve. When it comes back. I always say this dog first, not the dummy, or dog first, not the ball. So send your dog out, let it get it. You've given it a prize. When it comes back, dog first, give it loads of cuddles and fuss, cuddles and fuss, and turn that cuddles and fuss into the praise. And once you've done that, take the ball off it gently and do it again. So we're imprinting good manners. So that's a massive one, and people who come to me with my dog won't retrieve. It'll pick it up, but it won't come back and that's what's happened the outdoor.
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Speaker 3:Let's get back to the show, okay that's a good one um yeah, and the the other side of that, what people do? They see me doing demonstrations at a game fair and they see all my dogs sat still and all these dummies flying around and none of my dogs moving and like, wow, how does he do that? All his dogs sat still. No, not one dog's gone for it until he tells it. And they think I want that, I want my dog to be like that. So, right, right from a puppy, they've got it on a lead, they throw it a dummy and they go ah, sit down, sit down, sit down. And they don't let it have the dummy and they wait 10 seconds until it's sat and then they send it.
Speaker 3:What you're doing, then, is quashing the drive a real bad one. If you quash the drive enough on a dog, it just can't be bothered to go and get that retrieve. If it goes and gets that retriever because it thinks it has to, you know it's not enjoying it. It'll go out, sniff it, roll it over, and then just look at you and you're like pick it up, pick it up, and it won't do because you've removed the drive. So you know you can. You can buy a puppy that hasn't got a lot of drive and the way to get the drive back into it is try and be exciting and let it run for a run for a retrieve and be all excited about it. But you try and make it sit still and try and be the fully trained dog. When it's a puppy it'll just go. What's pointing me doing anything? I'll just sit here. I don't get told off, I just sit here and I can't be bothered.
Speaker 2:So that's cool, feed me, you know so so that brings us on to that's some great tips there, I think you've. You've kind of cut three top tips pretty good. Let's just say with obviously we were just talking about all these covid dogs and stuff like that. It has also now thrown a lot of dogs into rehoming where people just can't cope for them. We see it all the time. I've got dogs that are going out to be rehomed. Is it too late, say you take on a three-year-old spaniel? Is that too late to do any training with it? For anybody that's listening to this, not at all.
Speaker 3:I I do see people that have got dogs and they ring me up and say, darren, I'm really struggling with my dog, it won't do this, it won't do that. Um, I say how old is it? And they say five years old. I go, okay, let me see it. But I'm not just seeing the dog, peter, I'm seeing the commitment from the owner. If the owner's committed to sorting the issue out, I can do it. You know, I can genuinely do it.
Speaker 3:But if he turns up and passes me the lead and said there's my dog, what can you do with it, I pass him it back.
Speaker 3:And everybody knows me for the man who says it as it is and I'll pass him the lead back and I'll time to get in his car, I'll send him his money back. You know, and I need commitment from people and if they say to me I really want to nail this, darren, I want to get on top of this and the turn up and they're not late because punctuality is important to me, um, I'm always early, so they've got to be on time. And if the turn up and they've got a passion to want to do it, bring me any age dog and we'll sort it, you know, and I truly mean that, because all you do is shape, you're shaping what it needs to know, and you and you won't start off difficult, you know. You won't say, oh, there's a blind retrieve over that hill, in the wood, over that river, you know yeah, we're going to start with a real basic thing and make it fun and give the dog direction.
Speaker 3:We're going to be satin after life and we're going to relive everything. You know it chased things, it barked up a tree, it. You know there's loads of things that people do and you can undo them, you know. But there are certain cases where it's gone too far. And I say to them and I am honest, as I've said I'll I say to them I need to train this dog. I've stopped training people's dogs for them. I'd need to train this dog to get anywhere with it, because you mate, you're just a bit weak, you know.
Speaker 3:And I am honest to them, and you know I'll say to them you know you're doing this wrong, you have to do it like this. And they try my methods, but it's their version of my methods and it's nowhere near what I've just shown them. So I'll show them again and I'll say no, what I want you to do is this. And they'll try again and they're not quite getting it right. So I'm honest to them and I say look, you've got to listen. You've got to listen. If you don't do this, you're going to be forever coming to see me because I don't want them. I don't want to fail him, peter, because I've always said this if your dog gets really good and someone says to you on a park or in a field who trained that dog, just mention my name. But if your dog's actually as bad as it is today, don't mention my name one bit so that that leads us on to a really nice part after that.
Speaker 2:Obviously you spoke about right at the beginning. You watched the gamekeeper as a child who walked along with his spaniels and all the rest of it. Now, back in those days, the, there was the, it was the carrot and the stick method of training, kind of things. Uh, we've now gone on this complete flip and you go on youtube and it's all about positive rewards for dogs and you must never punish your dog and all the rest of it. Where do you stand in that? Because obviously if you've got a spaniel, sometimes they need to know, like a little tug on the ear, who's boss, how, where's your position?
Speaker 3:so my position is, as I've said and I've already said it on the essay as it is if my dog messes up, I'm having a word with it, you know, and um, so if I'm on to my dog and my dog flushes a bird and it decides to follow that bird I'm not built like a gazelle but I can move like one I'm gonna be shouting and bawling at my dog come here, you blooming thing. And I get it and I have a word. I shout it, give it a little um word in its ear, and then that normally does it. I think what? When people see me handling my dog or any of my dogs, they say ain't darren quiet? Why is darren so quiet? The reason I'm quiet, peach, is because when, if I'm quiet and I'm handling my dog really quiet, when I do get annoyed, when the dog has stepped out of line, I become a Tasmanian devil. I'm like screaming and shouting. Dog goes oh no, what's wrong? So we make a big difference, and only this weekend.
Speaker 3:On Sunday we're training and there's a guy there is talking to his dog nonstop and I said listen, mate, you're just turning your voice into white noise. Your dog doesn't know what you're saying. He was saying oh, sit there, wait there, don't. Your dog doesn't know what you're saying. He was saying oh, sit there, wait there, don't move. Don't move, sit, sit, come on, just wait there. And I did say to him you need to shut up, tell it to sit. If it doesn't sit, put it back and sit, be clear.
Speaker 3:So to answer your question, I'm no fluffy trainer, but I'm not how they used to be. You know, I've got books from many years ago. I bought them for historical reasons and one of them said if your dog chases a rabbit, catch the dog and beat it to one inch of its life and it'll never do it again. And I'm like, wow, that is an old method, discipline. We have to appreciate that to discipline a dog it needs to be well-timed and well-measured and not overdone, because you don't want to spoil that relationship with your dog.
Speaker 3:I've got different levels of dogs in temperament. I've got a really soft dog If I went she'd go, oh no. And. And I've got another one you could hit him over head with a shovel and say what's next, dad, you know so, not that I would, but that. So you have to measure your uh correction to the dog. There'll be some people not wanting to talk about correction or discipline, but, um, unfortunately we are. We can't communicate verbally. By the way, you're running across that a1 motorway. He's going to get you killed. We have to, we have to correct them.
Speaker 2:You need to stop on that whistle and I think that's the problem nowadays.
Speaker 2:There's too many people do that. They just want to do the fluffy training. Oh, I'll give it treats because that's going to train my dog and it's sometimes the case of going well. We've had family members turn up with a dog and the dog's pulling the family around the garden and nipping at them and I went you've got to sort that dog. I've always been to training. It's like give it 10 minutes, walk up and down the road with it and they're like what have you done to our dog? It's totally different around you. It's like, yeah, because it knows that I'm in charge and it's not running. I'm not giving it a treat every time it does something wrong, kind of thing yeah, um, yeah and I.
Speaker 2:I was taught one thing for my spaniels and it was like if if they were in the in the pack with mum, she'd nip their ear, kind of thing. So it was like you're walking along, she's misbehaving, just a quick down, tug on the ear, growl at her and instantly that was the response. All I have to do now is sort of do the grrr with the voice and the dog's like okay, I, I know that I'm doing something wrong, kind of thing I, I do get asked.
Speaker 3:I agree with what you're saying, that the, the puppy and the mother, um, and I do often get asked. I'll say to somebody you need to get on top of that dog, you need to show authority. And they often ask me what would you do? And I'd say, if it was my dog, I'd have a word with it. And they say, yeah, but what does have a word with it. And I say to them is, however you see fit, you know I can't say to them go and smash your dog with a pipe, you know, like like that book did I. I'm saying you have to, you have to be you and however you see fit to, um, have a word with that dog is how it should be. And I can't be there telling you you need to smack your dog's bum, you need to pull its collar, you need to do this. So I always say is you need to sort your dog out, get on top of it.
Speaker 3:And then it's up to them how they discipline the dog yeah, yeah however, I do say to them but I don't want to see your dog screaming its head off, because if you do, I'm going to be at you. You know there's no need for that. Yes, there are times that we need to have a word with our dogs, but if you're putting a dog in absolute, excruciating pain, you aren't training it properly. So let's train it properly and let's try and not get there but you still see that on some shoot days, don't you?
Speaker 2:you know, there are some very hard trainers out there, because you watch the dogs get out the back of the beaters bus and that dog literally sits and cowers behind its owner and you're just like, yeah you, you train in a very old-fashioned way yeah, and, and often if somebody comes to me and says I've been with a trainer for past year and I don't, I'm not particularly getting on with them.
Speaker 3:I understand that you, you've won gundog trainer year, whatever the stuff they come out with, and I'd like to train with you, first thing I tell them I don't want to know the name of the trainer, I'm not interested. However, I can tell the age of the trainer that they've been with, but how they react to the dog. So if they're aggressive with the dog, if they come up with certain words and how they deal with the dog, because I tell them I want you to be how you. You've been with your other trainer and I can virtually tell them how old the trainer is because of the methods. Yeah, you know, um, and I never ask for the name because I'm not interested and I I genuinely aren't. But then when you show them methods that you can do and how you can imprint our new training methods on them, it's great. And you often get people saying, wow, I can't believe my dog's just done that.
Speaker 3:For example, how many handlers tell the dog to heel when it actually pulls? Yeah, so dog pulls, I go heal, and dog pulls, I go heal. So the words you are make the noise because they are only noises. The noise you are making is for what it's doing. So how does it understand what heal means? That's the old method yank it on lead, get it to your side and shout heal. So what I do is I'll stand still and dog comes back and when it's in its position I'll say heel and off I go. If dog pulls, I stand still. When it comes back, I say heel. So I'm making the noise for what I want, not what I don't want. So there's nothing going on there. Nothing happens for the pull, just like the recall. But when it's inside of me, it gets healed. Just one more on this how many people tell the dog to sit when it stood up? Everybody, yeah don't they you'll do it.
Speaker 3:You'll do it, peter, totally, yeah, yeah. So the noise you make is for what your dog's doing. So your dogs, your dogs. When you've trained a dog to sit, that's fine. But a young dog, if you tell it to sit while it stood up, the noise we make is for the, but a young dog, if you tell it to sit while it's stood up, the noise we make is for the action of the dog. So we're telling it to sit and it looks at us, and then you go sit and you make it sit and it's like oh, hang on, I've been told off with this command. I don't get it. I don't understand. What am I doing? What should I do? Should my bun on ground? When I put my bun on ground, my dad says shit, he's not happy. I don't get it. So what I do? I wait for it to sit and then I make the noise sit. So the noise we make is for the action of the dog and the dog understands it much better.
Speaker 3:My methods of training are now. I see other people using these methods and it's great to see, because my method of training I use now is like a text message. Before we used to send letters. The letter would get there in time in seven days. Your dad would read a letter saying Dad, I've left home and now you can tell him by text message. By the way, I'm going to pub dad, right? So that's the type of thing we're doing. We're telling our dogs a text message. The noise we make is for the action of the dog. We get it to sit, then make the noise sit, and that's. They're the methods I'm using. The noise and make is for the action of the dog.
Speaker 2:That's really useful to hear that because obviously, yeah, I I listened to you talking about the heel and the sit and the people I picked up knowledge from are old school methods and it's like, yep, tug it on the lead, bring it back in, and it's. It just makes you think that there are yeah, there are different ways to do it. Have you see, obviously, going from that, we'll just carry on down the route have you seen a sudden growth in the number of people that are saying they're dog trainers? Massively, yeah, but, um, is that because of they've trained? I think we mentioned a minute ago they've trained their dog and all of a sudden now they think they can tell everybody else how to train different dogs um, locally where I am, um, I've had five people join our club and they're now professional gundog trainers.
Speaker 3:Well done to carry on it. You know, um, yes, they are my competitors now, which is just that's life, um. But what I do see is, um, I'll sit and I'll go on to one of social media and I'll see that this guy's got 17 000 likes and he's he's done this particular training method. Um, I'm not saying it's wrong. It's good to see people training and having a go, um, but training a dog is different to training a person. You've got to match both dog and handler. You know, you can read a book, you can watch all the videos. However, that book, that video is about that person and that that that dog, um, and it can't differentiate between a naughty dog and a naughty person. So that's why a one-to-one is really good, because you, if you came to me for a one-to-one, I'm assessing you and the dog and a naughty person. So that's why a one-to-one is really good, because you, if you came to me for a one-to-one, I'm assessing you and the dog, and what I tell you to do with your dog may be different that I tell your wife to do with the dog because she were better at one thing and better at other. Um, and that that's so.
Speaker 3:There's a difference between a dog trainer and somebody who can train everything you know, and I think that's key. I do see, I know one. One lady came to me and she said oh, I've been to so-and-so trainer Cause, oh good, yeah, that's cool. And she said I asked him a question and he couldn't answer it. He said I'll get back to you next week. She says he bloody Googled it, didn't he? You know? And and that that type of thing is. It's out there. And I think if you want, if you want somebody, if you want a good person to train, you just say to me, show me your dogs.
Speaker 3:You know, show me how, show me your attitude towards your dogs, then I'll have a one-to-one with you and you know, the pedigrees can be as beautiful as you want, but you can. You can have anything, everything's shining, but um, there are some, some I wouldn't say bad ones out there, but miss um sold to people you know, and and I do see them popping out up all over and we just find that let them do it.
Speaker 3:But I think when you are looking to train your dog, go to somebody who's proved themselves and it doesn't mean they have to do they have to be in trials and they have to be gun dog trainer. You don't have to be that, but somebody you can actually look at his reviews, look at her reviews and go, hey, this guy's got some good reports back, you know, and and become part of it. And and kirbon spaniels um, often said people said it's not a club, it's a family, and when you meet people and they all say that, it brings a lot of joy to me that it's a family of people training the same methods, all to achieve the same goal, and it's it's lovely to see but that that's what it boils down to, isn't it?
Speaker 2:at the end of the day, if, if you've got the right, I suppose, wind it back a bit. If somebody was looking for a gundog trainer or a dog trainer you kind of, it's probably better to work off a recommendation in most cases rather than just a google search, because at the end of the day, a lot of people can do fancy web pages and and instagram or facebook or social media posts, but actually to get that recommendation is important. But but you've just hit the nail on the head there a family it's. It means that everybody's work, as you say, working to the same idea.
Speaker 3:They all want it to succeed yes, of course I um recently asked one of my friends he actually he was um a novice handler came with a young dog to me. He, um, I trained with him for a couple of years. He went on to running competitions, he won trials and made him into champions and he'd been in champions, cocker championships, great lad kept in touch with him and you know he really appreciated what I'd done for him and I said to him do you fancy coming training a Spaniel day with me? So me and this guy called Paul, we both did a Spaniel day and I wanted him to put his little twist to it.
Speaker 3:And what I the first thing I said to them when, when I've got my customers there with another trainer well, he's not really a trainer, is, it is just a. I'm not. I'm saying just he is a person who can train dogs. He's not particularly a trainer as a business. And I said to them when he come that when they all turned up, this is Paul. He's going to show you his version of his Spaniel training and he may tell you things that contradict what I've told you. He may show you things that are brilliant and better than I've told you, but what he will do is want the same goal, end goal of what I've tried to achieve with you.
Speaker 3:So there are different versions and different directions to get to London, but we still got to Londonondon and that's that's important, but making sure that, um you, the stuff that you're being told is worthy of that person well, I think that goes for everything.
Speaker 2:I I kind of explain that to newbie deer stalkers, people that are starting out in it. I went the best thing you can do. It's a bit different with dog training, I suppose, but you're still in the same place. You're going to get to the same outcome at the end of the day. But go and see five different stalkers and pick something out from each of those because and then make your own path. Yeah, that's it. The outcome is you go out, you're going to get a deer on the ground. How you do the a, b and c in between, that is probably very similar. And if, if you train one way and paul trains another way, as long as you get to the final outcome in the same place, happy days yes, of course, yeah, and and like, I've never been deer shooting personally.
Speaker 3:However, when we're on, when I used to be at Harewood Estate, I was a head picker up there and I also did underkeeping there and we were deer culling roe deer and I was there watching all the rifles culling deer, because there were just, I mean, tons of them. You know you'd have herds of them coming through woods because they were just, I mean tons of them. You know you'd have herds of them coming through woods and they were selective of, of course, and I've never, I've never shot a deer, you know, and I don't know whether I would or whether that's I'm that busy with what I do, shooting rabbits, pheasants and vermin. I don't know whether it would, but to their own, isn't it really? And and and I I've got a guy who he's offered me to take me shooting and and I've declined it because I'm either busy or I didn't want to at that particular time. I'm not against any type of sport, um, so long as it's done ethically properly, let's do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no 100, and I think I think we're in the limelight. It doesn't matter what you do, but you train gun dogs or you train dogs at the end of the day. But as soon as you put the word gun dog in front of it, you probably invoke a reaction in some people that you'd meet as to. Well, I couldn't go to that trainer. He trains dogs that go and chase birds or chase game and they have the wrong opinion of it. I don't know whether you've come up against that I have, yes, I've.
Speaker 3:I've had phone calls from people and said, um, I want to bring my cocker spaniel working breed cocker spaniel training. But I've heard about you gundog trainers right, what about us gundog? Well, I've heard you're pretty nasty. Why, well, you kill things. Oh, hang on a minute. Well, we're not going to kill your dog first place, but what we're going to do is train your dog to not kill things. We're going to train it to walk inside of you. We're going to train it to be obedient pet.
Speaker 3:And I have a lot of people who just have pets, but they have pet gundog breeds, which is fine. You know, it's lovely to see when we have some lovely people come along and they've got they've got the passion to want to get it right. They come training normally. That type, how many percent? Quite a high percentage of people with a gundog breed want to go to a gundog trainer but they don't want to be involved in blood sports. However, quite a big percentage of them who don't want to.
Speaker 3:When the first start they find out that the dog's hunting like crazy. It's stopping on whistle, taking direction, it's getting to what it wants to do and they realize I've got a shoot and they're like uh, can I come beating on your chute? Yeah, of course you can, but I don't want to touch dead things, all right? Yeah, cool, You're just beating, so you shouldn't be touching any dead things at me. Next thing they're picking up and they're knocking a pheasant on Ed, you know so it is fun and we do get all different people, but it's enjoyment. I get out of it, peter. Honestly, I'm passionate about people, I'm passionate about training and I just love it.
Speaker 2:No, I think that's really good and to actually yeah, in this day and age where anything we do we're completely scrutinized, it doesn't matter what activity you do. Now, as soon as it mentions field sports in it, it seems to have we're all tied with the same brush and it's great to be able to show that passion and hopefully get more people introduced.
Speaker 2:And obviously, as you're doing, somebody brings a dog to you. They've bought a working breed dog and they want to train it. Well, it's great that they can then develop from that and and see the next phase of it. So, yeah, it's that softly, softly catchy monkey kind of introduction to field sports, isn't it it?
Speaker 3:is and and we encourage junior handlers as well because without without new people, new blood coming through, us guys, we're going to be struggling, you know.
Speaker 3:So we need the new generation to come through. So we, when we're having a competition, we always have a junior handler competition, you know and encourage youngsters in there and come along and join in and and it's great to do and great to see. I do a whole game fair, a whole show over two days. Um, I haven't, I didn't do it last year but for five years previous to that and they're over. I think 10 000 kids came to the show. There are a variety of sports, a variety of um country pursuits, so they're how to make a bow and arrow, how to make things out of wood. Watch this man with his dogs, you know, and it were brilliant to see and it's quite surprising that some people just don't like dogs. To me it's surprising, you know, a dog's a brilliant companion. But some of the children absolutely were horrified that there's a black Labrador sat in a pen looking at them. You know, it's just just. We have to encourage our youngsters to move forward you.
Speaker 2:You hit the nail on the head that I so I took once I'd lost my two big old spaniels. I just had bray and my small spaniel and I took her everywhere. She literally came to work with me, came to every scout camp and it was really interesting the reactions that you would have. Children were like, oh, they're terrified of dogs. And she was brilliant because she just used to sit next to me all the time.
Speaker 2:And eventually you'd see a child that was terrified of dogs and it was something and maybe a reaction that their parents had fed through, like the imprinting for that child about the dog and they'd come over and they'd get braver. And then they'd stroke her head and they'd start giving a fuss and she'd just still sit there and enjoy it and all of a sudden that child's fear of dogs was was starting to break down. And I think that's really important because, exactly as you said, with dogs, parents imprint onto their, their own children oh, you mustn't go near that dog, it'll bite you, it'll do that and it's like. But they also do that. They wind the dog up in the same case, at the same time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I often see people you'll be walking along like I never put mine on leads and I'll be walking anyway. I can walk anywhere with all my pack behind me and people start crossing over to the other end of the field like, oh god, there's that nutter with all them dogs. My dogs aren't going to do anything, they're just going to walk past you, not even look at you. But um, that for that instance where we're doing the show with all the children there, I actually get a load of children in the arena and I say to them I'm going to train you like my dogs and I tell them what my whistle is. So I get my whistle out and I blow the whistle once I say that stop. When I tell you to go back, you've got to run as fast as you can, but when I blow the whistle you got to stop. And I get them doing that. You know and get. And when I pip on my whistle loads of times, you've got to run back.
Speaker 3:So I put something at over ender arena a canvas dummy and I say, right, go, go back. And they all set off running. Then I blow my stop whistle and I'll say to them if you don't stop, I'm going to put you out. You know, and we play games like that, but it's good fun and I've got I've tell them you've got to beat my dog to that dummy. So I've got my big, powerful lab sat there that's going to cover this ground in less than five seconds and it'll take a child maybe 35 seconds to get to other end of arena and they're getting closer to dummy and then I just say dog's name and off he flies. Then I wait while he gets to them. I say, right, go back, kids. And they're trying to beat my dog and my dog gets dummy and flies back.
Speaker 2:It's a really good fun, but it's that type of involvement we need them to be part of us yeah, yeah, and once upon a time, like the, the dog bet and van's best friend kind of thing, was the faithful companion that was always there. That's sort of the, the second pair of eyes, the watcher for the family, everything.
Speaker 2:It protected you from the wolves and whatever was going on that's why why we domesticated dogs at the end of the day, helped you find food, helped with all sorts of things. So yeah, it's. It's a funny old world where one extreme it goes that, um, there you see it with with people that are terrified, and it can be. It's like you look at my spaniel it's like, yeah, she's hardly terrifying. Put her in the car, maybe, and close the door. She's a different thing altogether, but that's because that's like a crocodile, yeah pretty much.
Speaker 2:But you open the car and it's. It's always funny because you say to people we'll just open the door, but she'll bite my hand off. It's like open the door. She just said hi, yeah, I'm fine, you can stroke me but, it's, it's getting that across and hopefully we, as you, we've got to train that new generation of of kids to to carry this on, because, yeah, we see it already on shoots, you don't see as many children there on the beating line and it's just changing world.
Speaker 3:It is, yeah, and I think it's important of us all not to ignore every sport. So, whilst ever like the fox hunting ban, the people who went into fox hunting didn't support it, but the same people, they went rough shooting, you know, and they go deer stalking and they go fishing. And I think, as a group of hunter, gatherers type people, regardless of what particular discipline it is, whether it's deer shooting, hunting, fishing, rabbiting, pheasant shooting we need to all support it and you know we're, we're a minority if we don't stand together well, I I think I say it on every podcast until we've worked out the rifts within the shooting community or the or the hunting community, we never get, we're actually going to destroy ourselves, because we don't need the antis.
Speaker 2:All they do is they see a crack and they help widen it. But because there's so many you've just said it there the fox hunting community nobody stood up to defend them and make it right, but actually they were just people out having a good day on the horses, working the hounds and all the rest of it. It didn't matter what they were doing. Most of the time they never caught a fox. It's um, yeah, we, we've lost it in scotland because we used to be able to go out with the uh, the packs of hounds and run, run foxes to the gun and and we were just chatting about it the other day it's like you can still take two dogs out to do it. But when you had a pack of beagles or or or something like that, belting through thick cover and the noise and the barking was coming towards you, it was like, oh, this is great, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And then all of a sudden it just took a right hand turn and you're just like oh, that wasn't my time, but those days.
Speaker 2:It was just. It wasn't about, yes, it was great to get a fox, but it was also about being out there to have a laugh, to see a bunch of guys that you hadn't seen for a few months. Um, it was an off season. It was like we're going to go and do a vermin drive. We'll clear stuff up it. It was the social aspect as well to keep in touch with the older shooters that may be not coming out beating anymore, but you could take him out and stand him on a a corner of a fence post and wait, waiting for a fox to come out, and it was that whole ability to keep the community together that's now gone. It's another thing that has been got rid of and that's the end of that kind of thing it's.
Speaker 3:It's terrible to see it, but you, you, you do see it disappearing and but I think it's important that we all whether you're a fisherman or a ferreter or a stalker or whatever we all need to stand together and just because it's not your particular discipline, it'll come and get you. It'll get you one day and that's what they're doing.
Speaker 2:They pick off one at a time and it will be the pheasant shoots are under scrutiny. Well, the grouse moors, that's the big one at the moment. There, and once they've got rid of an abolished if they manage to abolish driven grouse, which they're not far off most places are slowing down. Anyway, they won't, they'll come to the next one. It will be the pheasant shoots, the the game shoots. That's where they'll aim for next and and I think that's what people don't see they just think well, I don't shoot grouse, so it's nothing to worry about. Well, it is something to worry about.
Speaker 3:It's something very important that your days of shooting could be next kind of thing it definitely gonna happen, you know, and and it's a terrible shame because, um, it may not happen in my lifetime, but there'll be one or two that get stopped in my lifetime. There's already fox hunting being stopped, so whatever's next, well, exactly anyway.
Speaker 2:Well, we won't end this on adult, we end this on a real big low. Thank you ever so much for for coming on having a chat. I think there's going to be a lot. There might be questions. So if people want to come and find out more, we'll put some links to your social media, but they can obviously come to your website and and get in touch with you if they've got questions. Um, and yeah, I, I think I think we've we've covered quite a lot there for people to uh, to hopefully get some good ideas if they're thinking of getting a dog of course, and you know I'm I'm always on end of the phone.
Speaker 3:You know, if anybody clicks on my website, they'll be able to see my phone number and just ring me up and if I'm available I'll answer it. If I'm eating something, I won't um and but um. You know I do get phone calls at silly o'clock at night and if it's important I'll speak to them and you know I am available and it doesn't cost you to call me. You know and I'm willing to give you advice.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean people call him at like one in the morning because he probably will be sleeping.
Speaker 3:But, as I've always said, if it's important, leave a message or drop a text, because at the end end of the day, at least people can respond to that very quickly and get back to you.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, it goes on to flight mode around 10 o'clock, so we're all right there. Oh, you're all right, then you're sorted. But yeah, thank you ever so much again for um coming on and, uh, getting your recording done with me thank you very much, pete, it's been a pleasure well, I certainly learned a few things there talking to darren about some dog training.
Speaker 2:Always, always nice to find somebody with such a great passion and the ability to share that knowledge. If you need to find out more, remember to go and look him up on the socials or go and have a look at his website. I'll try and put the links in the description for you. Anyway, we've got some more exciting podcasts coming up. I've been busily working away at a long list of people to get on, so keep checking back and watch this space and remember, if you've enjoyed what you've listened to, go and leave us one of those five star reviews. Click it on, share it, tell all your friends about it, pass it on to somebody that's not in the hunting community. Get more people listening, please. That would be great. Anyway, we'll catch you on the next one.