The Outdoor Gibbon
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The Outdoor Gibbon
74 Why Ethical Hunting Can Save Wildlife And Land In Southern Africa with Sarah Ripley Forsyth
A crackling fire, three spaniels at our feet, and a conversation that takes us from frosty Scottish mornings to the heat and dust of the South African veld. We sit down with professional hunter and outfitter Sarah Ripley Forsyth to talk about what conservation really looks like when you’re paying the bills, protecting herds, and living with predators. Sarah runs a historic lodge and game farm on land once owned by Paul Kruger, where history, habitat, and hard choices intersect every single day.
We dig into how South Africa’s professional hunter system works, what it takes to guide international clients across multiple provinces, and why dangerous game requires far more than a short course. Sarah opens her books on breeding programs for sable, eland, wildebeest, impala, and blessbuck, and she doesn’t shy away from the messy bits: predator losses, poaching with dogs, and fences that never stop everything. If you think zebra are harmless, brace yourself.
Then we follow the money. Leopard permits have been frozen since 2021 even as encounters rise. Rhinos demand 24/7 security that few can afford without legal horn revenue. Elephant overpopulation in certain reserves is flattening trees, stripping browse, and pushing grazers to the brink—one park saw a reported hundred elephants starve in a year. Sarah argues for ethical, regulated hunting as the only model that consistently funds habitat, enforcement, and long-term wildlife recovery on private land. It’s not the easy story, but it’s the one that keeps animals on the landscape.
We round things out with practical guidance: how to book a safari, travel with firearms, set a realistic species list, and match terrain to your fitness and goals. Whether you hunt 1,400 acres or 18,000 hectares, the bush decides; a good outfitter adapts with you. Come for the animals and the history, stay for the truth about conservation that glossy campaigns won’t tell you.
If this conversation challenged you—or clarified things—share it with a friend, subscribe for more field-first stories, and leave a review with the one insight that changed your mind.
You can find Sarah on Instagram at this link
https://www.instagram.com/sarahripleyforsyth/?hl=en
The Kedar Heritage Lodge at this link
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Outdoor Giving Podcast. I am still recording now in the back lounge, next to the fire, with three spaniels round my feet. Winter has definitely set in and I need to sort some heating out in my office. Who would have thought a heating engineer that's got a cold office? But hey ho, that's just the way it is. To be honest, it's nice to have the dogs roaming around below you and uh and have the fire roaring in the background. What have we been up to? Well, obviously with that patch of snow that came over the last few weeks, it's been quite good fun. Our pheasants are really sort of staying at home, they haven't gone too far. We had a good first day actually. Nice to walk around with the syndicate, get a few guys out, shot a few birds, took them home. Happy days. The deer stalking's been going well, been helping out a bit with the hinds, getting some stuff done down there with Tom. I know he's having a good season. Things are all changing in the way of the deer. Uh, we've been seeing coal targets changing slightly, SH asking for different things, but that's just the way it's gonna be. I think that target is still truly painted on the back of them. We've got some other podcasts to to release. Back in July, I actually recorded a load of stuff at the Scottish Game Fair. The sound quality was a bit of a problem due to PA technical issues and all the rest of it, but we did actually manage to get some great chats recorded. I've been spending a lot of time trying to edit these up, and hopefully, hopefully over the festive period, I will release these and hopefully you can have a good listen and some interesting conversations to uh to see what comes from that. We've also been recording some some other interesting guests and having some good chats and more to come. So, watch this space. Going to do a couple more of those in the field type of recordings as well. That bit that means that when you're sat in the car, sat in the office, and the day is not really going well for you, you can listen along and think you're out in the field with myself and my guest having a bit of an experience with us. So, hopefully, I know they seem to go down quite well, and uh, we're gonna give them another go. Potentially some other ideas as well, uh, maybe a bit of group chat or something like that. Get a maybe even a get a co-host on just for a bit of a laugh. So, let's get on and talk about who we are chatting to in this recording. Uh, her name is Sarah, and she is a South African pH hunting guide, outfitter, however you want to describe it. She also owns a beautiful lodge. I've been talking to her quite a lot since we recorded that podcast, and potentially now we'll be travelling over to South Africa to actually do an in-the-field chat, maybe even take some game over there just to see how her game farm works, which you're really gonna enjoy the chat we have, and then potentially she's coming back to Scotland, and we'll do the same again. Take her out on some of those Scottish species and uh let her experience the uh the true brutal weather we have up here. So a nice plug there for the weather changing. Obviously, now it's got colder. I was gonna say we still have a stock, a small stock of our wonderful beanies. We've also got the hoodies, uh, t-shirts are still in production. There will be the designs will be going up so you can all see them very shortly. And we've also got those nice mugs so that you can sit there with your cup of tea while listen cup of tea or coffee, even stick a whiskey in it while listening to us around the fire, maybe. So, yeah, you can find that. Drop us a DM, an email if you're interested in any of that. We'll try and do a social media post so you can uh see what's available. Haven't done a website for it yet, just time. It always gets in the way. As I say, we're uh just drop us a message if you're interested in anything. Anyway, let's get a quick word from our sponsors and then we'll get that show started. The Outdoor Giving Podcast is proudly sponsored by the Shooting and Hunting Academy, an online training platform and UK registered learning provider that provides a host of accredited and nationally available courses and masterclasses delivered by leading industry experts.
Rachel @#Stile:Hi guys, it's Rachel here from Style, the new social app for field sports and farming. Join our countryside community on the App Store or Google Play. Just search Style Country. Enjoy the show.
Peter Gibbon :She is an African hunter, a Ph, a game reserve, and hotel owner. I think there's more to it, but we'll get on and find out a bit more in a minute. How are you doing?
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Hi, thank you for having me. I'm well, I'm blessed.
Peter Gibbon :No, thank you for coming on. Obviously, um, it's really interesting. I've I've been around Europe and I've talked to a lot of European hunters, and we've discussed how they got into hunting and things like that. So let's let's start off with a bit of a bit of information about your background and and how it all sort of came to where you are now.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Well, firstly, so is this your your first time having uh an African on on the podcast?
Peter Gibbon :It is, yes.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Oh, this is gonna be an interesting conversation.
Peter Gibbon :Absolutely, yeah, yeah, totally.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Um wonderful. Well, as you said, my name is Sarah Ripley Forsyth. My my last name is Scottish.
Peter Gibbon :Yes.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Um, and it's quite nice to to speak to someone based where you're based. Um and I was born in South Africa, uh, born and bred, um, been very blessed to to travel around the world and um and be educated overseas, and but um nothing could could keep me away from South Africa. Um so I I was uh studied in the States for a little while, um finished there, worked there, and then uh came back home. Um and that was all obviously part of a greater design. And uh have a younger brother, he also came back home. Uh he was he was in the UK for a while, um, but nothing like Africa. There there really is nothing like it. And if your feet touch the soil, I was gonna say, is it just a draw?
Peter Gibbon :Because you're you're born there, it's like going back home pulls you back to the bottom. You know what?
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :It's so much deeper than that, like 100% born here. But when you when you come to Africa, when you stand on the soil here, um, something happens to you. The you know, we hear it called Mother Africa, the motherland. Um, there's a reason for that. There's almost like um a spiritual tie when you get here. People say you catch the African bug. Um, and that's why people just keep coming back because South Africa is um Africa, generally Southern Africa. Uh Central is, you know, just a disaster. So so Southern Africa. Um it's it's an extraordinary place for people to visit. Anyway, so I was born here um and came back and started running uh one of our lodges. So we have um a hotel in Johannesburg.
Peter Gibbon :Okay.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Uh, which I think most people hear of, and we have a restaurant that's actually a venison restaurant.
Peter Gibbon :Oh fantastic.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Um so it's it's quite something. It's called the Carnival Restaurant, and um, it's very well known. We've been around, um, thanks be to God for like 31 years this year. Um, and what when we do, we we we sell venison, so people come and it's almost like an all-you-can-eat, and it's zebra, impala, ostrich, kudu. Um, and so you really get to, you know, eat eat the animals you're about to go and see on safari.
Peter Gibbon :But that that's amazing. So obviously, for any of our English listeners or or or European listeners, when we talk about venison, venison purely is is deer. But you obviously classify zebras, impalas, ostrich all as venison.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :So uh yes, um the laws around ostrich are interesting, but that's because of Gucci bags and stuff like that. Okay. Um, same with crocodile, right? Yeah. If you actually take it back to to where it comes from, what? Follow the money. Why is crocodile and ostrich different? Right? Because Gucci bags, um bags, let's talk luxury. So different laws apply to those guys, but anyway. Um, yes, venison is generally the term used for game meat. Um, I think even the states, I think they use the word venison, so so things that are wild. I don't know if it applies to poultry besides an ostrich, but I think an ostrich is I actually don't know. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say for sure.
Peter Gibbon :No, no, that's fine. No, I it's just really interesting to hear how that term is used for different things. As I say, the UK venison for us would be one of our six deer species.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :And and that would be the same thing, right?
Peter Gibbon :Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Like it would kind of be the same thing.
Peter Gibbon :Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Um, so I ended up managing our game reserve. So a game reserve for us is um kind of your idea of a safari or an American's idea of a safari. Like it's um natural land with with animals on it.
Peter Gibbon :Yep.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Okay, wild animals. Um, and a game reserve, you get private ones, uh, and then you get government-owned game reserves.
Peter Gibbon :Okay.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :So it's sort of like a like a national park kind of thing. Um, so I have a private game reserve. I'm in the Northwest Province, which is about two hours from Johannesburg, and I have a game farm. Um, I have a lodge, and um, there's a lot of history here, actually. A lot of it ties to to um British history, uh, UK history. Okay. And um, yeah, and I breed animals, uh, which is another interesting conversation. Uh not only have a game farm, but um also working on on breeding the animals. And um yeah, I'm just uh just out there talking a lot and and having some fun.
Peter Gibbon :No, absolutely. And I I would say that obviously, yeah, when you talk about a game reserve, so is your game reserve? I'm assuming it's it's a large area of land.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Yes, so yeah, so the word large is an interesting word, right? Because it leaves um it leaves a lot of room. Yes. Um now the a game farm can be um it's not limited to size. So I don't know if you work in acres or hectares. Acres are fine, acres are perfect. Can you handle hectares? We can handle it. Yeah, yeah. I'm more. Okay, cool. So I mean, my farm for all intents and purposes is a small farm. Unfortunately, we can't expand more. I can get into the the history there, but um, we can't really expand our farm anymore. But it's about 500 hectares, which is about 1,400 acres. Okay. Somewhere there, somewhere there. Um, where you get farms that are 18,000 hectares. Yes. You know, um, and so a lot comes into play when you talk about both of those and both of the different hunting experiences you'll get. Um and it's something that people should should be aware about. Um, but it's also something that is okay to talk about. Um, so I have a I have a smaller farm and I still have to hunt in order to sustain my farm, regardless of the fact that it might not be um anywhere near the same size. I mean, I I know people who have breeding camps where they breed one species in in a um that is as big as my farm. So um, yeah, it's that's that's measurable. Yeah.
Peter Gibbon :Um and and I'm assuming that the farm that you speak about is fully fenced, or are you are you open to the next door?
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :So we call it adequately enclosed. Um so if you have if you have a game reserve, generally you want to have animals, so it's a fenced in area where nothing can escape and nothing can enter, ideally. Um and the animals inside of that fenced area are yours.
unknown:Right.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Okay. Unless it can sort of be proven otherwise, let's say, like an ear tag or a microchip or something like that. The animal is yours. If it jumps out, it's not yours. Um and so and so when you buy animals, um, because we'll probably get into that as well, there's so much to cover. When you buy animals, you obviously have them in an enclosed space. Okay. So you don't lose them.
Peter Gibbon :Yeah, yeah. No, okay. That okay. Um do you so though the animals originally that appeared on your farm, are they all animals that you've put there, or were they they wild animals and you've kind of run around, put a fence up and and that's it. They're in there, they're yours, though.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :So unfortunately, that's that's ideal for people, right? But no, um, where we are, we so the farm, we're gonna go into a little bit of history, but you know, generally hunter people are kind of lovers of history, so cool. So um we had a president, Paul Kruger, um, and actually all Englishmen should know who Paul Kruger was because you guys had a war with us, and and he and Alfred Milner sort of started the war together. So you should know who Paul Kruger is, but that's not your fault, it's the education system. Um same thing in our country. But Paul Kruger was the president of the Transvaal province. Um, back in the day there was the Cape Colony, um, and then there was the Orange Free State and the Transvaal province. And so Paul Kruger was um an Afrikaner. Uh so we're gonna go like basically 400, uh 200 years before him, his ancestors probably settled, right? So he wasn't Dutch anymore. He's now an Afrikaner, that's that's 200 years, that's a considerably long amount of time. If people were having kids at 20, that's like 10 generations. So um, you know, those people are they're they're African at that point, anyway. So he was he was the president and um he had a very large influence with the Afrikaner community, and he had houses all across the Transvaal, but my farm is called Bookenhot Fontaine, which means Beechwood Um Fountain or Spring and my farm was Paul Kruger's original family home, so it's where he raised his 16 children because they had no TV back then.
Peter Gibbon :That's why on the map there's a there's a house dedicated to it, isn't there? Yes. I was Google earthing things and trying to find things out, and I saw that. So you've answered that question.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Doing your due diligence.
Peter Gibbon :Absolutely.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Um yeah, so that's that is uh the Paul Kruger Country House Museum, actually. So it's a museum on property that people can come and see. Um it's pretty much all done in the 1800s, it's uh it's quite incredible. And then our lodge is themed all around the history of the Anglo-Boer War, which the Brits basically started in 1899 to 1902. Um, so it was a war that lasted four years with more than 500,000 British soldiers on on ground and only 50,000 Afrikan soldiers on ground, and they held them for four years. And that's where really the concentration camp started. Um, there's there's a lot of history there, which is really, really amazing history. You guys, I know in in like the UK you just talk about the Anglo-Zulu war, but really, like, you got things messed because the Anglo-Boer War is so incredible. I mean, it's astounding what happened, it's astounding the figures that were there. Winston Churchill was there, you know what I mean? He made his name as a young journalist while he was there. The history is just incredible. Anyway, so it's Paul Kruger's farm. Cool. Now, originally the king of the area, Josimor Chatle, it's the Royal Buffer King Nation. Um, Kruger bought 2,000 hectares from him. Um, and the English leave their land historically to the oldest son, so the land stays within the family, but the Afrikaans uh would split their land between their children. So Bookenhotfontein got very small over the years.
unknown:Okay.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Um and they segmented it into pieces. And so my father was from Zimbabwe, um, and he came to South Africa, and I don't know why he wanted to buy a property all the way out in Rastenberg, the Northwest Province, but he did, and he bought um he bought a little piece, and then over uh 30 years he he pieced back as much of the original 2,000 hectares as he could. And then our um our lodge is is quite amazing because it's themed all around the history of the Anglo-Boer War. Um, and so we we call it the South African War. It was really the first world war. I mean, it should have been the first world war because people from all around the world fought in that war. From the Indians to the Malays to uh yeah, Australia, Canada, I mean, um, and we don't we don't really talk about it. So so the property owned not only has beautiful animals, which we haven't even really gotten into yet, but um it has really incredible history.
Peter Gibbon :I was gonna say the history sounds absolutely fantastic, and to have all of that on a property, so as well as people coming to stay to to do what we're about to talk about, there's so much more as well. It's not just about going out and and and looking at animals and and taking animals.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Yeah. So I think that's a little bit of a synopsis of me. Yeah, pretty much so on the professional hunter.
Peter Gibbon :Let's talk about the professional hunter status because that's something that's that's very specific, obviously, to we we've as I say, we've talked to a lot of European hunters where they all go and do a trained hunter type of status, but it's very much something that's um an African um sort of registration and license, isn't it, to be a professional hunter?
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Yeah, so um a South African can hunt with a South African as long as there's the relevant permit, that's not a problem. Um, but if you want to be someone who escorts um or guides an international tourist, okay, so an international hunter. If I want to guide someone from the UK or the US, I have to have a professional hunting license.
Peter Gibbon :Okay.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Okay. We have nine provinces. Each province has a different law in terms of its animals, okay. Sort of environmental laws, right? Because as environment changes, so do animals, so do species. Of course. And so I reckon that the law is um is sort of produced to reflect that. So um if you want to hunt in multiple provinces, then you need to get multiple professional hunting licenses. Um so I I have two. I have the Limpopo license, so I can hunt with an international client in Limpopo and um then the Northwest province, which is is where my hotel is based. But um, further than that, the professional hunter is just able to guide an international hunter. Okay. If you want to be the person who goes out and looks for hunters to come in, almost like so it's it's called a hunting outfitter.
Peter Gibbon :Yep.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :So the hunting outfitter employs the so same, I I'm reckon it's the same with you. The hunting outfitter employs the professional hunter. And um, so I uh I got by my professional hunter's um license, but then decided that well, before that, I knew that I just actually wanted the hunting outfitter, so I better get the pH done um and all that under my belt and obviously get that experience, and that was an amazing course. Uh but yeah, uh ultimately the goal was the hunting outfitter.
Peter Gibbon :Okay, and that and that course, is that over um is that a few weeks or is it a 12-month thing? Is there practical parts to that course you have to do?
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :This is the question that I was hoping you wouldn't ask. Oh um, so so when we um when we look at what it should be, yes, it should probably be over 12 months. Um but unfortunately it's it's not really that way. In Zimbabwe, I know it's it's a few years to get their professional hunting license, but in South Africa it's a 10-day course. Okay, okay.
Peter Gibbon :Um so everywhere has a different way of looking at doing it, and and okay, no, that's really interesting to know because as I say, in the UK you can go and set a four-day course and you get a qualification, or you go to Germany and you do almost two years.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Right. So we do we do um we do ten days, then it's an intensive course, and I I think it's you have to get over 70 or 80 percent, it's one of them. Um and it's intense. I mean you've got to learn all that law uh and the general information within 10 days. It's it's not enough time to really learn all the information, but it's a it's a pretty good start. Um and that professional hunting license does not allow you to hunt what we call dangerous game.
Peter Gibbon :Okay.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :So our our big five, um, they're named the big five because they're the dangerous animals to hunt on foot in Africa, right? So we have our elephant, our rhino, our buffalo, our leopard, and our lion. And if you want to do um, if you want to guide somebody on a dangerous game um hunt, then that's a different situation. You need a different permit for that, which is which is important, and you need a certain amount of hours going on those sorts of hunts because that's that's serious stuff we're talking now.
Peter Gibbon :Okay, yep.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Yeah. Um but that's really good to know. The hippo and the crocodile are on there too.
Peter Gibbon :Yeah, because obviously that's one of the most important things. You just don't want somebody that's done a 10-day course gonna say, I'm gonna take you out to hunt one of these top five because the last thing is that the case.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Look, most of the people that have done the course, yeah, 100%. Most of the the people that have done the course are people that have sort of grown up hunting their whole life and and that sort of thing. So so they're they're well aware of most things, but when you go on a hunt to hunt something dangerous like that, you want somebody who's experienced, you want somebody who's going to be able to tell you what to do and help you through it, and and um, so that at least is a really important thing that they um then force. Fantastic.
Peter Gibbon :Now that that's it's really interesting to know that because obviously, as I say, a lot of people sort of look in and the question is asked, why do you why is it professional hunters and so on? But to find out a little bit more about it, yeah, that that that's really, really good. I've learned something new, you see. There you go. And I hope everybody listening will be. Yeah, no, totally. Every day's a school day. So let let's let's sort of move on now. So let's talk about what you've got in terms of animals on your game reserve because obviously you're as you you said, you're a game reserve, but you're also doing breeding and things like that.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Right. Um, so where do I start? Um when I when I took over when I took over um running the lodge here in the game farm, I I decided that it would probably be the best course of action to get some some some nice animals. And and if I was gonna do it, I was gonna get, you know, really nice animals. Um, maybe not a whole bunch at a time because they cost uh an arm and a leg, but a few here and there. Okay. Um and I um I invested in some really, really wonderful species, um, specimen, and um, and yeah, I'm working on on generating hopefully a a few wonderful generations um of bloodlines. So I don't know how well versed you are on South African animals.
Peter Gibbon :Pretty good. I've I've I've looked at the uh I've looked at many of the um safari lists and things like that. So I'm sure if not we can uh we can all we can all Google away and have a quick look and what look at what you're talking about.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Um so I've I started concentrating on what's called bless buck.
Peter Gibbon :Okay, yeah.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :E-L-E-S-B-O-K. Yeah. And um I generally started with them because uh I thought they were the cheapest to start with. But if you have leopard going around, they're definitely not the cheapest to start with because leopard like them.
Peter Gibbon :We'll come on to talking about leopards in a bit. Yeah, definitely.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Okay, awesome. Because I'm so ready to start talking about those things.
Peter Gibbon :Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Um so uh so yeah, Bless Buck. Um, I currently have one of the biggest blessbuck in in the country. Um, so I'm very, very proud of him. He's he's gorgeous, and it's it's really something to see some of the the best specimens sort of walking on your your property, you know, it's quite something. Um and then Vilde Beast.
Peter Gibbon :Yep.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :They're the ones that some people for some reason get confused with the buffalo. Um Vildebeast is sort of something I'm I'm concentrating on as well. Impala, I'm working on on doing a few different things, um, which are controversial in themselves, uh, because we um we've bred sort of some groups with some some colour variant genetics in them. Okay. Um so that sometimes opens up a whole other kettle of worms, but uh that's fun too. Um and then sable, sable antelope. Yep. Um there's something something quite special. Um my my Eland are pretty pretty lovely. Um what else am I missing? So then then I just generally have um a lot of planes game species. So plains game is when you don't really have the big five on on your property. Um just sort of the normal zebra giraffe, um, those sorts of things. But I suppose they're not really normal, are they? They're quite special.
Peter Gibbon :Yeah, I was gonna say if that's not the type of thing that we see every day to see those, that's like a trip to the zoo kind of thing, but you just probably look out the window and and there they are.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :That's my morning traffic, yeah.
Peter Gibbon :No, absolutely. But again, things like zebra, people don't I don't I've chatted to people that have been out there to to hunt them and they don't realize that they can be problematic. There are issues with them and and and they can be like goodness, zebra are just horrible. Yeah.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :I mean, they're really, really nasty animals. I mean, a male zebra will kill foals of no problem. Uh he'll drown them. They're they're nasty, they eat so much. If you have to supplement feed for your animals, because obviously you have a finite piece of space that that you have your animals on, and so during winter, um, you often have to supplement feed, which is an expense. Um, and zebra just love to eat, eh? They're bossy, they'll get to the front, they bite, they're no zebra are nasty. They really are. But um they're beautiful.
Peter Gibbon :Disney, Disney really have uh it's not just in in every everywhere, everywhere that Disney touches, it makes all these animals look so lovely and friendly, and and our world is oh, these animals don't hurt each other, they all talk to each other, but the real the reality is, yeah, the zebra's not not a friendly animal, and and there's probably lots of other people.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :No, the zebra's not a friendly animal.
Peter Gibbon :Yeah. Fantastic. Right. That's so you've got a fair selection on not a huge amount of land. So I I look at that a thousand acres.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :I mean, I haven't even given you all the species. I got kudu, I got anyala, I got uh bushbuck, um, they're hard to be used here. Um I don't know if I'm running short.
Peter Gibbon :It sounds amazing, but I suppose if you don't have the big five dangerous ones or the things that really want to just eat them all the time, then your your game is pretty safe.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :100%. Well, I mean in in theory. But um but let's talk about some of the things that that actually make it not so safe. Um fencing can only help so much, and um fencing is is uh you know, I once asked somebody, I said if I build a whole wall, you know, um will it work? And he said they'll just break through the wall. So when when it comes to poaching, poaching is a real thing. Um I think actually some people are even confused as they don't understand um that that's private property. Um now is some people just poach and and sell your meat. Yeah. say is this the the the famous is this the famous bush meat the the that sort of the black market of it that yeah is is it you talk about it and it's like small packets of of basically gay meat that's that's being sold illegally isn't it yeah 100% and it's often done with dogs okay um yeah so I mean you'd be amazed at the kind of animals three dogs could take down it's it's quite something to see so so uh humans are are an issue but then we have leopard which we'll get into um leopard are an issue in this country um there are these lovely beautiful cats called caracal and caracal also they take your impala and they just eat like a little section and they just leave the rest of it um brown high hina I'm not sure I have them but I know that um that there's some issues with brown hyena right now um just a lot of them everywhere and so that's that's that's mainly those are mainly my issues and then jackal jackal especially during lambing or coughing season um they that's where you that's where you lose your your animals so if you make it out 50% sometimes these all all of these animals potentially have the the ability to go over I I'm assuming your fence is like a a six foot game fence no not potentially 100% they definitely will find their way over I mean it's it's something that I bet every single game farmer in South Africa deals with.
Peter Gibbon :I mean you know whether we put up an electric fence so a lot of our fences are 1.8 to two meters high sometimes 2.2 meters um and my goodness gracious they will find a way yeah um they will find a way actually a lot of people have problems with warthog uh I'm lucky I don't get wartog yeah but warthog bury under fences and so when you dig under a fence then you leave a lot of space for for other animals leopards crawl leopards jump then right let's because leopards keep coming up and I I watched the reel you posted on your Insta feed and it's what basically it it brought me to actually want to talk to you because it was one of those things that it's like you you wanted to talk about elephants rhino horn and then leopards let's talk about the problem that um that you have with leopards because obviously it's something that comes up and up all the time sorry sorry about that no no it but it's it's really good for people to understand this because all a lot of people will look in and go oh it's a cat it's a beautiful looking creature but that they're in in the UK obviously our uh pro probably our biggest predator listen a leopard is a beautiful creature nobody's gonna argue that that's one of the most beautiful creatures on earth yep you know but at the end at the end of the day uh you could have the goddess aphrodite at your door but if you know she's stabbing you in the neck you know you're not gonna open um absolutely anyway so so uh there hasn't been a permit issued to shoot a leopard in South Africa technically since 2022 2021 the permits were kind of like put on hold and then they said they could use them in 2022 but so basically since 2021 no leopards hunted and and why is that now let's just let's let's actually go to the basis of this exactly why is that and this is applicable for leopard rhino and elephant what I'm gonna say okay yeah yeah yeah what did I say earlier I said follow the money right with the Gucci bags with the ostrich and crocodile okay so let's follow the money if we really have a problem with our rhino if we really have a problem with our elephant and we really have a problem with our leopard why is nobody listening money right there must be money involved somewhere so what happens is these NGOs that are most you know unfortunately from the Westmights organizations raise billions of dollars and then hand it over to let's say the South African government or whoever that they want to whatever money laundering they're doing whatever you know whatever payoffs they're doing none of that money is actually going into conservation or the protection of wildlife or animals right that money is going into people's pockets and they're never going to stand up against the fact that no we actually have to start killing some elephant because they're getting billions of dollars.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Why on earth would they stop it? You know I mean let's be serious if you're getting billions of dollars you know leopard now there are too many of them it doesn't matter you're not gonna say that you know keep your heating on all winter yeah yeah yeah so yeah um so that's where the problem comes down I mean there are plenty of animals that are endangered the pangolin is terrible there's so many things but leopard are not endangered they're a problem elephants are not endangered in southern Africa they're a problem rhino are very very very very very precious and we have to protect them and the only way we can protect them is by keeping them alive shaving off their rhino horn and selling it and with that revenue being able to actually enforce enough security to look after them so it's profitable because right now we're just watching our rhino die like quite frankly and that's through poaching I've seen antelopes sell for more than a rhino okay and and the rhino is it is poached they are being poached out yeah yeah so so the the rhino are being um poached and how a poach has to do it's because you know they don't really have a dart gun in the patients they shoot it and they cut it off and there they go um I mean graphic for anybody who's sensitive but um everybody won't be they'll they'll they'll they'll understand what you're talking about because most people on here are like minded yeah yeah yeah yeah um so I was speaking to somebody the other day and they had a rhino uh mother poached on their farm um and they just cut the baby in half uh it just left it there dead i mean I mean that's the kind of stuff happening now if you're a farmer who has rhino and you can cut off and shave the rhino horn every few months and sell it for the crazy prices it sells on the black market for people in Asia to have a heart on is you can with all that money with all that money you can um you can employ the correct kind of security you can have the correct right kind of resources so you can actually look after those animals rhino are a ridiculous expense can you imagine a 24 hour security force yeah yeah yeah it's you know it's an animal covering a large amount of space and so it's it's really tragic to what's happen like what's happening to them um and yeah it's uh yeah it's almost it's almost unthinkable how when you say yeah you've got you've got a security force basically you've got like guys at a armed to to go and shoot poachers if they see them or deal with poachers. 24 hours a day.
Peter Gibbon :But that and we're and I'm thinking I'm I'm thinking a field but it's not a field it's tens of thousands of acres potentially they have to cover and they are keeping an eye on that the rye knows where it's moving but without disturbing it too much so it's still living a normal life and yeah it's just it's unthinkable really for anybody from from sort of the UK really it's it's it's crazy and it's a tragedy and I don't understand why people can't like rub two marbles in their head together and just think about it for a second.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Yeah but again it's it's all about it's all about money.
Peter Gibbon :This is the emotive part which we spoke about um which I said to you just before we came on air as we we had a show in the UK um dedicated to guys that go out to to to take deer that it's called the stalking show and what was really interesting is there were a couple of there was an outfitter uh for um african game and a journalist managed to sneak her way in and literally the the she didn't mention roughly anything else about the show but went straight to the stand there looked at the taxidermy on the wall wrote an absolute horrible article about her about it and it's just like it's so not understood and actually this is the problem the whole world looks in on it and they just see she's doing the harm yeah 100% yeah that's that's the tragedy of it is there's people don't understand.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Should I give a brief synopsis of how I try and make people understand? Please do absolutely I'm not sure how how it works there but but from South Africa's point of view so you know obviously I'm sure that side of the world you've heard that our um our governing body is not so great. Yep um and so as a consequence if our electricity isn't great how could our national parks be great right like let's put that into perspective if we struggle to get electricity in our country do you think they're looking at national parks? Not even a little bit so our national parks are in in a really really bad state especially with elephant overpopulation but anyway they're in a very very bad state with um with animal numbers ordinary animals and uh the the most amount of animals owned now in South Africa are on private land because of the success of us breeding them right because of keeping them safe because of trying to make sure they're not poached because of having breeding programs to bring species back we've just brought um the Bontabook off uh a list that was you know people weren't able to hunt them people uh they were they were near extinction at a point and um South African farmers have brought them back. I mean the sable antelope it wasn't in South Africa anymore we have yeah that's that's conservation that that that is a whole that's what it's all about absolutely I mean I can't even tell you the South Africa have the best conservation model in the world if you come and look at our game farms I mean we we have bred things back to how they were like basically before the colonizers came we're trying to we're trying to get them to that point you know where you had sable bills that were 60 inch walking around and that was something that wasn't you know not uncommon. So it's it's it's it's quite something that we're doing. It's a conservation model that should be studied all over the world and and I'm very proud of it because it's been it's been super successful. The government haven't really acknowledged the numbers and therefore most animal censuses about South Africa are nonsense. And so we can't even really start with a leopard census because there is nowhere to start government numbers are unreliable. We can't hunt them so it's not even like the reliable people the hunters can keep track of how many they're shooting or how many there potentially are I mean I was at a farm not too long ago and they said on one camera on their farm there was anywhere between nine and 12 leopards on one camera.
Peter Gibbon :Really?
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Wow 12 different leopards walking past there I mean that's not that's not funny. That's a problem.
Peter Gibbon :Those things you know and this is your livestock.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :If if you have a sheep farm and you have something that's taking off every single day you know there's your money there you're going you can't have anything you're not gonna eat there your livestock.
Peter Gibbon :It's your product there um but this is crazy that this information is never all the the yeah the information that everybody because we've got as you say you said it a minute ago these big groups these animal rights groups and and and propaganda producers all they produce is the films that show oh you've got to save the elephant you've got to do this you've got to do that but actually this whole this load of information the the conservation that all the outfitters I but I'm I'm I'm there's probably one or two outfitters that maybe are more about money but most of you are more about the animals and the protection and and and giving back and and making sure that the land is looked after like let's just let's just talk about the you know good and bad people for for a second.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Yeah yeah um you know people obvious obviously throw that on us a lot but in any industry in the world whether you're in the financial game whether you're selling sanitizer whether you're doing account whatever you're doing there are people that are immoral there are people that will do the wrong thing I mean majority of hunters are people who respect nature the most respectful that are not going to throw a bottle on the ground that are going to pick up a bottle you know we we're a different kind of people we're we're the real lovers of nature um and so yes some people have strange ethics and you know and that's another thing everybody has has a different sort of moral code so for example there are probably animals that I wouldn't shoot right like we have this really cute thing called the janet I probably wouldn't shoot a janet but I would shoot an elephant I know a guy who wouldn't shoot an elephant but he might shoot a servile cat you know we we we're all different in in what we would what we would shoot and what we wouldn't and that's okay and there's a space for everything.
Peter Gibbon :And it's really interesting when when I put posts up and we'll talk to people and and something comes up like that and the UK you could put any deer species up or a fox up no problem and all guys would be like I'll shoot those but if I put a picture of an elephant up and said I'd like to take that then that would change everything.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Most of them would be let me just tell you about elephant. Let me let me go into my elephant rant now. Okay all those people that are saying now elephants you gotta protect them it is it is almost our biggest wildlife crisis at the moment I would say besides the fact that Rhino are getting taken elephant is our biggest problem. Okay so we I'm gonna use a case study for Madigwe Medikwe National Park okay Madikwe is a game reserve that's in South Africa really well known tourists love it five star great experience blah blah blah they decided that they were going to get their profits not from hunting but from photographic tours and and people coming for tourism purposes game drives and happy go lucky hug trees and everything's gonna be spotty fine. So there were no elephants there. So they brought in something like 300 elephants okay yep they're carrying capacity the amount of elephant they can have on that land is 300 today they have anywhere between 1.2000 to 1.7 thousand elephant numbers are not for sure because nobody knows what's happening and they're trying to keep everything undercover. So basically there are more than a thousand elephants overpopulated in that environment if you go Google Earth Medigwe, okay, an elephant how much is it? It weighs tons it has huge feet it crushes everything it walks over it pushes every tree down and so what's happening is the environment is becoming completely depleted. There's no grass for grazers there's no trees for browsers everything is dying this year beginning of this year a hundred elephants drop dead in Madigwe Park in front of turrets from starvation so you're telling me that starvation is better than a bullet that's what you're telling me. You are happy to watch something starve instead of something that's lived a long nice life and get shot ethically quickly dead done meat gets used la but you'd rather something starve to death I really struggle here. You have to hold me I really really struggle so that's Medigwe. Okay now the Kruger National Park which is the biggest park in South Africa which is like I think a third of the size of the UK or something like that 30,000 elephants overpopulated our park is getting screwed 3000 if we could charge even $50,000 a pop we could refense some of our national parks we could fix the roads we could protect the rhinos we could I mean the list is endless. Elephant there used to be an elephant meat processing factory not far from the Kruger National Park and they would can that meat and the local villagers could buy can you imagine how much meat comes off an elephant no it's cruel then no elephants cry cry everything's gonna drop dead I mean there's a case study as well of this park in Kenya it's something like Tsavo National Park and they had an overpopulation of elephants.
Peter Gibbon :They said no they're not gonna get rid of any and it was like a decade later 1000 elephants died of dehydration starvation and constipation and 500 rhino because it was too cruel to take off a few of them isn't that crazy though it's just that that's just it's because it is totally mind blowing it's like do you know what I call it go for it let them eat cake right okay that's exactly what it is yeah and and and they everything is fine this is the problem we've got because of things like the film like Dumbo elephants are lovely and they say they do all these wonderful things but you've just you've hit the nail on the head there the the they just destroy stuff because the size of them they they're it's like a bulldozer moving through the landscape.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Hundred percent and we love them but we love them to a point where you know where where populations can sustain themselves healthily but but as a a real conservationist I physically can't sit there and watch an animal staff.
Peter Gibbon :I would rather put a bullet yeah yeah 100% and that's really cruel I don't know about you bunny huggers well apparently not apparently not this is the crazy bit we have it up here as well we've we've got a lot of we get a lot of deer hit on the road and the the the way it should be dealt with is you if you've hit a deer and broken its leg or it's injured go and euthanize it put it out of its misery oh no no they they call in as you've just said like the bunny huggers they call in the the rescue team to come out to it because somebody oh I've hit a deer it might get saved and it's just like 90% of the time the deer gets a blanket put over it and euthanized but it's like I could just rock up bang done dealt with that's it but no it has to be oh wait you know what probably happens 90% of the time it probably dies of like heart attack because it's just being traumatized from these people trying to interact with it. I mean 100% I don't know I don't know I d I I think you're right you know you're not you somebody else said to me the other day you know it's because of Bambi it's because of the Lion King and I suppose that's true isn't it we we we have we have made the planet's soft and and that's the problem we we the it's it's Disney they call it we call it Disnification. Disney has a lot to answer for because basically it's made everybody think that lions all stand around and talk to each other elephants just roam around and and make things safe and the leopard kind of lies in a tree and waits and doesn't do anything wrong and and then you see a wildlife show where they never really show you the the full effect but if if if you put a wildlife show on of elephants dying people be they'd be uproar but they'd say well we should do something about it. We should feed them it's like you try feeding something that will eat lorry loads of food where's that food coming from absolutely look how far our taxes get us already 100% it's it's it's crazy and it's really nice to speak to to somebody that can actually share that knowledge and hopefully the listeners will be able to go I never knew that and they'll find something new out because to be honest I didn't know half of what you've just said um because it's not it's not it does probably doesn't leave your country it doesn't go out to the general public it doesn't make its way up to Europe. No we we just see um a save a save the rhino or a a save the elephant campaign and that's about it.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Yeah yeah and you know it's no well thank you for listening and thank you for you know enjoying enjoying the conversation that's that's my my plan to to try speak a little bit more and let people know you know the truths.
Peter Gibbon :The cut the conservationist side of things America obviously had their issue they were about to lose huge amounts and and back in the day they set their their ideas up their tag system and their their preservation and now they have a really healthy population of of everything it's they've done it. Nobody knows that Africa has this conservation system in place. And to be honest it's really nice to hear somebody talk about it I'm I'm sure there's been other podcasts but for for somebody to to tell the listeners about what's happening is is amazing. So let's just move on from that now so if somebody decided to come down to to you for a for a holiday uh a hunting holiday to stay at the hotel what what what's the process what would they what would they expect what would they expect well what's how far back you want to go you want to go to the booking process yeah let let's go from the beginning the booking process let's let's let's do uh we're we're coming to do a hunting safari with you let's say that right well I suppose the the first the first bit would to uh be to get in contact with me again um and then you know uh obviously I I have my my social media and and means to get get in contact and then and then we we sort of cater a plan to to you and and and what your wants are and what you're looking for.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :You know there there are many places to go hunting in South Africa.
Peter Gibbon :So there are many different species that you could let look at um at getting and um you know we we go through that what your kind of wish list is we can put together um your dates and then we we we do we do the paperwork um and we organize you when you say paperwork just just cut let's just backtrack on that when you say paperwork is that like a um um paperwork for just booking in the hotel and the hunt or is there licenses that the the guest would need or is that explain what the just just just out of curiosity what the paperwork is. So yeah yeah yeah um well okay so so you'd obviously um most likely need paperwork for you know your uh passport sort of procedures on your side um whereas you're going to stay at a place sometimes you show them your booking at the hotel that sort of thing um from the the hunter's client side coming to South Africa they don't they don't really need anything unless they're traveling with their firearms okay um and then there's some procedures that that you need to go through um and then really everything else is handled on on the hunting outfitter side it's that's that's the job and that's pulling all of it together you know making sure that at the end of the day you can get your trophies shipped off to you making sure at the end of the day the places that you want to go hunt everything is um clean dusted and sorted making sure that we can try find the animals on your wish list um and and that's sort of that's sort of the gel of the whole thing making sure that from arrival you know well from pre-arrival until you're safe on the airplane until you're you know on your way home that you're taken care of and that the process is smooth um as smooth as it can be in Africa which is one of the great adventures um and that's another thing you know Africa is a wild place and when you come here you can't say um I I'm gonna shoot a a red hearted beast a warthog a giraffe and um a clip springer maybe the bush doesn't want to give you those four options okay do you know what I mean we we're talking about wild animals well maybe the clip springer wants to fuck around with you for your entire safari and you never get him but that that's what it's all about completely what happens hunting that that's hunting isn't it 100% if if it was a given we would just we would be going out and just shooting and it'd be like you tie it up with a piece of string to a fence post you drive it oh there it is but actually it's the whole the whole challenge of being the hunt so can we let let's we've we've we've arrived now at the lodge we're with you we've done our meeting and greeting what what happens next say let's go on the morning and we're going out for I don't know do you pick what what animal you're going out for because you know exactly where it is or would you just go out into the into the farm or the land and if something appeared you you see some giraffes or a zebra in the distance would you just go after that or is there a particular order that you would you would do the process um it's it's a good question.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :I think um a majority of the time especially on far bigger properties and remember an outfitter let's say you come to me and you maybe you'd like to shoot on my property but you'd also like to go and shoot on a farm that is 18,000 hectares. You know you don't want to see any road or hear any car at all and you don't want to see a light in the sky. Any an outfitter can organize that for you right okay if I can take you to my place I can then take you to another place. So on those bigger those bigger areas it's it's often you take what you you can see. In other areas you know okay over there that's going to be a more kudu area more likely to get kudu antelope there um okay I know that that's an area that's really good for impala or and on on people's own farms you start to get an idea of what environment your animals enjoy. But remember as well it's you know yourself probably when you go out for a hunt an animal can smell gunpowder before you release a bullet. Yeah they they know that you're there and and sometimes in Africa you'll find it interesting I often find it's bloody species specific a god for zebra and I don't see the zebra that day I only see him parlay a god for bless buck no blessed buck um and you know it's it's just part of the game and it's it's it's part of that experience. I think a lot of the time people will um often find what what they're looking for and have the opportunities but at the end of the day if the bush gives you something and you get that spark in your heart that you have to have it um don't let it go because you don't always have the chance I know I have uh one friend and he's come for this specific animal he's from the States he's come twice now and he still hasn't been able to get the bastard right so it is it's it's the bush.
Peter Gibbon :It's the but that that that's it and and do you ever have obviously situations where guests don't understand this they they've paid their money they've come along and they they kind of go well why isn't that animal available for me why why aren't we getting it or are most people they understand about the hunt and and it's a wild animal yeah well I think it's important to um be transparent and then also get to know your client right because there are different places you could take different clients maybe some clients you know that they find it they're not as um let's say able right it's a man who's let's say in his 70s he's always dreamed of coming to Africa he's got a little bit of a sore hip and um he can't be hunt hunting in the bush for 10 days with a tent.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :You know? Yep yeah yeah um he saved up his whole life to go on this trip. You you you have the ability and and the resources and farms to be able to say okay well I know this farm is slightly smaller um we can take a car closer and get out and walk and stalk a bit closer you know those those things are always so get to know your clients get to know what your client wants be transparent with your clients say if you just want to hunt in this 1800 hectares you're never gonna see a diker just just know but maybe if we go there and we stalk there for three nights we might get one you know so I think it's also the the relationship is important honesty is important transparency is important and catering to your guests is important. A hundred percent but a hospitality is one of the most important sides of any outfit operation it doesn't matter whether we're talking Africa here or we're talking northeast scotland or an or even going on because it's a once in a lifetime thing right yeah for some people that's a once in a lifetime thing you know and even if it's if even if you come to Africa 10 times in your life it's still a each time is a once in a lifetime thing. Something you can remember forever. Um and so you are are you make friends you may make lifetime friends and hunting you know does that to you as well.
Peter Gibbon :Oh totally and and actually everybody I think the the hunting world is actually it's a very small place really it the world is very big but when you start talking about going out hunting it actually it makes it very close and very friendly.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :True very true fantastic so I think we've covered a huge amount and you've been able to rant and tell us all about elephants, leopards and and uh and rhinos is there anything else that um that we've missed because obviously um you're you've you've got some fantastic stories that you put post up on your on your socials and I think we've I've touched on most of what I had written down um but is there anything else why people should visit you well um absolutely I'll I'll uh I'll talk about why people should visit us and it leads back to what I said in the beginning. Yep you know there is nothing like Africa. You'll never recover from Africa. I I can almost promise you you'll land here doesn't matter if you shoot anything it's it will be stuck with you forever and you'll always want to come back. Whether you come hunting with me or you come hunting with another person Africa is somewhere that you have to see smell feel and if you were to shoot an animal in Africa that's a blessing. You know that's that's a big blessing. It really is the motherland and I wouldn't miss it. We have such a range that's that's also something that's so incredible is our biodiversity is dare I just say the best when it comes to animals that are on the fault. The amount of species you can see in a day. And we're not just talking about mammals you know um the cats the insects the snakes the reptiles the it's it's an incredible incredible place.
Peter Gibbon :And just out of curiosity what's your climate like? Because obviously everybody thinks of Africa and they think of deserts and things like that. But actually South Africa's fairly temperate isn't it we have a wonderful climate here.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :Yeah no we have I think we have one of the best climates in the world actually it's it's it's it's it's cold right now for us but we're um we're South African we're not British so yeah no absolutely it's it's not that cold but it's I mean summer hot days we're talking 30 degrees Celsius. Okay. Um very hot days you know ah goodness actually I think last summer it it went like 36 37 38 it was quite hot but we have we have a beautiful climate and up where I am it's um it's not humid but it's not too dry. It's it's it's yeah South Africa has beautiful weather. Cape Town is an interesting story because that has like four seasons in a day um interesting place to see for its flora um but uh but otherwise the the felt and the wildlife is quite amazing everywhere else.
Peter Gibbon :So basically it's come come come up to your area because it's uh it's got the best conditions and you're gonna have a an uh it sounds like an absolute great time and you're gonna learn a bit of history and yeah you're gonna you're gonna see so much by the sounds of it.
Sarah Ripley Forsyth :See so much, eat so much um and feel so much. Yeah I think we we we'll end off with the fact that hunting is all about respect. Um 100% respect for the life that you're taking um respect for the arms that you're holding up um you know it's it's it's a it's a very beautiful and spiritual thing. And I actually I've only been lucky to shoot one thing in in the UK and that was a pheasant and that was awesome. But but I I envy the man that that gets to come to South Africa and shoot their first animal um because it is something else.
Peter Gibbon :Well high we'll put all the links and everything to to your uh lodge ad and you in the description so if anybody is looking then they know exactly where to come to and I really do suggest people actually follow you because your stories are great and everything you've done on social media looks just it it's just such an eye-opener because it's so different. It's from the heart it's straight there and you just put it out there thank you I appreciate it. So and yeah um thanks very much for uh for spending spending an hour telling us about uh about your home and everything about it absolutely it was it was a pleasure and if you have any questions uh I'm here to to answer them but thank you and uh I will come visit you when I come to to the UK next definitely what a great chat there really enjoyed it Sarah did ask me to make one correction in there at about 44 minutes and 48 seconds she mentions Madigwe National Park it is actually Madigwe game reserve Sarah is has a passion and an emotion and it comes across just in the way that she talks about things and if you don't follow her on social media I strongly recommend you go and have a look she really does raise some good points and share some very interesting topics. Africa is still one of those very emotive subjects and there's a lot of people we obviously had Robbie on a while ago from the Blood Origins and again he does a lot of work down there. So there's there's stuff going on down there that the rest of the world just doesn't understand and I think we as hunters really do need to educate ourselves and see how it's all done. Yes we know how hunting in our own area happens like the UK but we should really as a hunter we should be educated and understand how hunting happens in the rest of the world because I see a lot of UK hunters even will you put something up about Africa and they're they they are a completely negative closed loop on it. But learning from these people and seeing how it's all done in different places is really important. Anyway I'm not going to waffle on too much it's the end of the show thanks very much for listening and I'll catch you on the next one and don't forget to go and buy some merch